HC Deb 18 February 1981 vol 999 cc415-26 2.54 am
The Under-Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. John Patten)

I beg to move, That the draft Museums (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, which was laid before this House on 3 February, be approved. This order brings together and updates Northern Ireland law relating to museums and art galleries. It re-enacts, with some amendments, the statutes under which the Province's two national museums exist—the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. It replaces, again with some amendments, the fragmented legislation, some of which dates back to the mid-nineteenth century, under which district councils may provide and maintain museums and art galleries.

Before I deal with matters of detail, hon. Members might find it helpful if I were to say a few words about Northern Ireland's two museums. The Ulster Museum has a long and distinguished history. It dates back to a private collection founded in 1831 which came under the control of Belfast corporation before becoming, in its turn, a national trustee museum in 1962. A major extension was completed in the 1970s. It is concerned primarily with the arts and antiquities which one would associate with a museum of the traditional sort.

The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, by contrast, has a somewhat different remit. It is concerned with illustrating the way of life of the people of Northern Ireland, past and present, together with their traditions. It has a shorter but no less illustrious history. It dates from the time that a folk park was created at Cultra, County Down, in the early 1960s. The Ulster Folk Museum (Amendment) Act 1967 provided for the amalgamation of the folk park with the existing Belfast Corporation Transport Museum. This supplemented the folk element with a valuable and expanding transport collection. In the short period of its history, the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has established itself as one of the leading museums of its type in Europe. Both museums naturally have strong research and educational elements. Their popularity with the Northern Ireland public and with tourists is illustrated by the fact that during the last year they attracted more than 350,000 visitors.

That background to the order having been given, it is now necessary to turn to the details. Part I is introductory. In part II, which concerns the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum and the Ulster Museum, articles 3 and 4 confirm the continued existence of the trustee bodies of those institutions. These articles also detail the composition of the two bodies and clearly define their duties. The only change of any consequence in these two articles is to make some adjustments to the composition of the two bodies of trustees. This has been done in response to representations that were received during the consultation period. As a result, the Ulster polytechnic is given the right to nominate a trustee to each institution.

In the case of the Ulster Museum, for the first time district councils other than Belfast have been given the right to make nominations to the board of trustees. This is in recognition of the fact that the museum clearly serves the whole of the Province, not just Belfast. However, the Belfast city council, as the original transferor of the museum, still nominates three trustees of its own. As a consequence of these changes, the number of trustees appointed by the Minister to the Ulster Museum has been reduced from nine to seven.

Article 5 deals with the powers of the trustees. It applies to both museums. The article represents a drawing together of the separate but very similar provisions in the existing statutes, with some minor changes. For example, the maximum fines imposed for the infringement of byelaws are increased to a more realistic level.

Articles 6, 7 and 8 contain no new provisions. Part III of the order is concerned with museums and art galleries provided by district councils. Article 9 empowers a district council to provide museums and art galleries. As a result of the comments received during the consultation period, it has been decided that district councils need not seek the Department's approval to make provision, except where they are seeking grant aid.

Paragraph (2) of article 9 permits district councils to acquire land compulsorily for museum purposes, but subject to the normal safeguards. The article also allows a district council to contribute to a museum or art gallery provided by another district council or, subject to conditions approved by the Department of Education, to one provided by any other person.

Mr. Matthew Parris (Derbyshire, West)

Does my hon. Friend have any reason to believe that district councils plan to use the powers thus given to them, or are these simply notional powers which may be used in the future?

Mr. Patten

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising that point. He will be aware that the 26 district councils in Northern Ireland have as one of their major roles the maintenance and development of cultural and social provision in their area, and a number of district councils undoubtedly would, severally or singly, like the opportunity at some stage in the future to contribute to museums and the development of museums. This article recognises that.

Article 10 re-enacts the existing provisions about byelaws. These provisions attract the general provisions for byelaws in the Local Government Act 1972, which, among other things, means that any byelaw must be approved by the Department of Education.

I draw article 11 particularly to the attention of my hon. Friend the Member for Derbyshire, West (Mr. Parris) because this is an important new provision dealing with precisely the point which he was kind enough to raise. The existing legislation does not provide power for the Government to make grants towards the provision of museums and art galleries by district councils. This article confers a grant-aiding power for this purpose on the Department of Education. I must say, however, that the payment of such grants is not contemplated in the immediate future.

Articles 12 and 13 repeal legislation which is obsolete or unnecessary. Article 13 also makes a minor amendment to the legislation which provides for grants to Armagh observatory by bringing it into line with the more usual form of Northern Ireland legislation. In other words, it now provides for grants to be determined by "the Department" rather than by "the Minister".

Mr. Wm. Ross (Londonderry)

The Minister said a moment ago that there is no present intention to make a grant towards a museum. At one time or another, there have in my constituency been a number of very valuable finds, including the Broighter gold hoard, which went, I think, to Dublin Museum. If another such find were to be made, would that be treated as an exceptional case?

Mr. Patten

The present position is that we would wish to provide an adequate regional museum service in Northern Ireland. The hon. Gentleman is undoubtedly aware of the recommendations of the Malcolm working party on the museum service, which were published in 1978. That working party suggested that there might be up to five regional museums in the Province. It is the Government's intention to promote a better museum service, but while our financial circumstances remain so constrained it is not the Government's intention to make a grant for any new museums. On the specific case of the finds which have been made in the Londonderry area, I understand that the ones to which the hon. Gentleman referred are satisfactorily housed and displayed. I suppose that we must wait to see whether any more turn up before suitable provision has to be considered for any future finds.

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

The Minister has been speaking about new museums. What about existing museums, such as the Armagh Museum, the Enniskillen Military Museum and some other museums which are far below standard and desperately in need of money? Will the Government provide money for them, or is this all just hot air that we are getting from them?

Mr. Patten

At the moment, the Government are not in a position to provide extra funds for these institutions, and we look to commerce, business and voluntary organisations in the Province to support these museums.

Mr. Kilfedder

The hon. Gentleman is expecting businesses to provide the money. The trouble in Northern Ireland is that many of these businesses are being closed because of Government policy.

Mr. Patten

I do not wish to be drawn into a wide economic discussion during what I hope will be a short debate on the order. The Government intend to provide as much money as they can for the museum service. They have taken the power in article 11 to emable them to make provision for further grants to new and existing museums provided by district councils when and where they can, but at the moment they are not in a position to make such grants.

The order has two schedules that are worthy of perhaps brief attention. Schedule 1 sets out the detailed provisions applying to the trustees of the two national museums. It represents almost a complete restatement of existing provisions that apply to the trustees of the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, with minor amendments to bring the two sets of largely similar provisions into conformity. Schedule 2 lists the repeals consequent upon the making of the order.

Mr. Tristan-Garel Jones (Watford)

I am grateful to my hon. Friend for giving way, not least because it gives me the opportunity of being the first person in the House to congratulate him on his first appearance at the Dispatch Box. The Ulster Folk and Transport Museum is in the process of transition. Can my hon. Friend say how much money will be needed to complete the museum, to bring the scheme to fruition as it were?

Mr. Patten

I thank my hon. Friend for his kind good wishes. I welcome him to our debate this evening and hope that we shall have the pleasure of his company on many more such occasions. I look forward to his playing an active part in them.

Over the last 20 years, the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum has proved to be the launching pad for two important developments in the Province. The first is the development of an integrated transport museum, which I visited recently, and the second is the ethnological museum, which has proved to be a focus for the scholarly study and display of ethnological materials of both material and non-material culture consequent upon the development of Northern Irish history. There is no doubt but that this is an institution of world standing, and a substantial sum of money has been spent on it in recent years. Is it a modern and up-to-date museum in a folk park.

Mr. Kilfedder

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. It is possible to get the Conservatives to restrain themselves? They are celebrating the Government's U-turn over the miners' strike and are in an exuberant mood. I do not wish to hear them ridiculing the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, which is in my constituency.

Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bryant Godman Irvine)

Order. All that I have been hearing are the observations of the Minister about the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum.

Mr. Patten

Schedule 2 lists the repeals consequent upon the making of the order. It is a not inconsiderable list of orders dating back to the mid-nineteenth century—no mean achievement.

The order regularises the activities of two most important museums in the setting of Northern Ireland. I commend it to the House.

3.10 am
Mr. J. D. Concannon (Mansfield)

I welcome the Under-Secretary, the hon. Member for Oxford (Mr. Patten), to our debates, and to the unsocial hours club. He will have to get used to this kind of thing in the early hours of the morning. Some of us have been at it for some time. I hope that some of the Conservative Back Benchers present will turn up again for some of our future debates.

Orders such as this one are not debated at this hour of the morning at the request of Northern Ireland Members or Ministers. There are times when the Opposition must show their opposition, and the only way is to go into the Division Lobbies. The numbers do not reflect anything. The Minister should be grateful for the fact that I kept an audience for him. I welcome the hon. Gentleman's description of the history of the museums. I hope that he will have a chance to visit them. He has been in his office for only a short time. I can assure him that when he is on weekend duty they are well worth a visit.

I can tell my hon. Friend the Member for Darlington (Mr. Fletcher), who has sat here diligently all night waiting for his Adjournment debate, that I do not intend to be long on the order. The stampede of Conservative Back Benchers from the Chamber can now start, because I can tell them that the Opposition generally welcome the order, which updates and clarifies the law relating to the Province's two national museums.

The order reflects the growing interest in museums, antiquities and the arts in Northern Ireland. I hope that the Government will match their words with additional funds for artistic and cultural activities in the coming financial year.

Over the past few years the Ulster Museum and the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum have become increasingly popular with the people of Northern Ireland and with the tourists who annually visit the Province. I understand that there has been an increase in the numbers visiting both museums to match the increase of 1979. We welcome the fact that the Government have recognised the importance of these two institutions by tidying up the law through the order.

My few comments coincide with the principal parts of the order. I turn first to the appointment by the Department of Education of trustees to the museums. In the past month, at long last, the Department has appointed a trade union representative to sit on the board of trustees of the Ulster Museum. We welcome the Government's foresight on this matter, and tonight ask the Minister for an undertaking that the Department will also appoint a trade union representative to sit as a trustee of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. Further, will he give an assurance that in future at least one seat will be filled by a trade unionist on both of the boards of trustees? Clearly the principle has been accepted. We therefore seek a word from the Minister to clarify the position for the future.

Also on the appointment of trustees, but this time referring specifically to the Ulster Museum, I should like to ask the Minister whether he or the Department concerned has considered the appointment of one or two art specialists to take special care of the art collection in the museum. This is a very important part of the provincial heritage and it needs trustees who have a background in the art world.

Turning to article 11, I note that the Department is now empowered to make grants to district councils towards the provision and maintenance of local museums and art galleries. This is definitely a step forward, and I know that it is welcomed by the Northern Ireland Arts Council as likely to increase the provision of cultural facilities. When does the Minister envisage the Department will begin to make such grants? Only the Irish could have an order like this, contemplating giving powers of all sorts to local councils but in the same breath telling them "We shall not give you the grants to carry on the work or exercise the powers that we are giving you." I hope that it will be at the earliest possible date, so that the people of Northern Ireland and prospective tourists can look forward to an even richer and wider choice of museums and galleries than they have at present.

I should like to emphasise the great social value of the museums and art galleries in Northern Ireland and to express the hope that the Government will recognise it by making the money available to match their actions. The value of the order depends on the will to make it succeed, and I await the actions of the Minister to see just how much will and determination lie behind this legislation.

3.14am

Mr. James Kilfedder (Down, North)

I also welcome the Minister to his new post. Indeed I am sorry that I was not informed of his visit in time. If I had been, I should have met him at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum where he made a short but, I am sure, instructive visit. Indeed, the museum lies in my constituency.

One cannot emphasise too often that that museum is one of the most outstanding museums of its kind in Europe. The folk museum has made a tremendous contribution towards an understanding of local history. One has only to walk round the 170 acres to understand the care that goes into the selection and display of exhibits. The items range from a water-powered mill that manufactured spades, to cottages, a church, a schoolhouse and vehicles that illustrate the evolution of transport in Ireland by land, water and air.

The museum is quite different from other museums, because it is concerned just as much with ideas as with objects. It is concerned with interpreting the traditional Ulster attitudes, values and way of life. In addition, it preserves the evidence of its material culture, The Ulster folk museum has become the focus for everyone interested in or concerned about the cultural heritage of the Ulster people.

It should be emphasised that the courses that are run by the folk museum are of enormous value to crafts such as weaving, and they enable young people to appreciate the total culture of Ulster in bygone years. It has been said by some commentators that the average Ulster man has a crisis of identity because he is neither Irish nor English. Sadly, I believe that confusion exists where there need be none.

There is a quite distinct Ulster character, which was apparent long before the more recent Scots' plantation in the seventeenth century. Anyone who doubts that there is a genuine Ulster identity—compounded of people from Scotland, North-East England and the native population—should go and see the folk museum. A visit there would certainly persuade someone of the existence of an Ulster identity. The rich and varied cultural history of Ulster is fully captured by the museum. It is not surprising that the folk museum is the foremost in the United Kingdom and is of the highest international repute.

It must be emphasised that the mainspring of Ulster culture is not found in the superficiality of latter-day political leaders or would-be political leaders of the Province. It is to be found in the architectural, literary and agricultural foundations that are so aptly illustrated by the folk museum, which set out to make Ulster people more conscious of the heritage that they share in common, regardless of religion and of politics.

It is almost an essential requirement that the ordinary Ulster man and woman, and the young people of the Province, should spend some time at the museum at Cultra to refresh their spiritual heritage, to obtain a proper comprehension of Ulster's past, and to gain a better understanding of the Ulster present and some essential confidence in its future.

Lately, a very biased picture of Northern Ireland has been shown on television. The programmes convey hate, bitterness and bloodshed as well as poverty and hardship. Hardship and poverty have never throughout the centuries destroyed or undermined the Ulster character. On the contrary, each fresh tribulation has strengthened it. But hate has never been the hallmark of the Ulster people, until recent times when politicians have used it to whip up fervour in order to gain more votes.

Perhaps a leading article in The Irish Times, a Dublin newspaper, last year succinctly summed up the value and the meaning of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum when it stated: History lives at Cultra. There may be a certain unavoidable justice in the fact that in Ulster, the region where man first landed on the island of Ireland, there exists one of the most heartwarming and homely and scholarly records of Irish life. Tributes to the excellence of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum have been paid by people from all over the world. We have had compliments paid by leading people from Europe. I shall not quote from them at this hour of the morning. However, it is proper to pay tribute to certain people involved in the museum. It is not the first time that I have paid tribute to a Welshman, Professor Estyn Evans, who, though Welsh in name, is an Ulster man by adoption. He is one of Ulster's great sons. His distinguished career, spanning more than 40 years in the school of geography at Queen's university, is well known and admired. But perhaps he deserves the undying gratitude of the Ulster people for being the driving force behind the creation of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum, of which he is still one of the trustees.

Then there is the director of the museum, Mr. George Thompson, who has occupied that post with distinction for 22 years. He has proved to be a wise, steady administrator, a man of ability, dedication and fair-mindedness, who has gained the respect of all those who wish well for the museum.

Then there is Dr. Alan Gailey, who is in effect the deputy director. His scholarly work has won international prestige for himself and for the museum.

There are others who should be mentioned, but that is not possible in this debate. Their splendid work should be recognised and praised by this House.

They have achieved much with the financial and other resources available to them. However, the museum is only about one-third developed. The staff are still moulding, shaping, building and extending it. When fully established, it will have few, if any, equals anywhere else, taking both form and function into account. Money will be needed from the Government to enable the work to continue. I trust that the Government will respond to the need to preserve Ulster's past and to encourage research into its roots.

3.23 am
Mr. James Molyneaux (Antrim, South)

I join with the official Opposition spokesman in offering congratulations and best wishes to the Under-Secretary. Those of us who in times past have been involved in the world of the Department of Health and Social Security are very well aware that he has already made an impact in that sphere. We wish him well in the future.

I am sure that the Minister has appreciated all the assistance which he received from his hon. Friends below the Gangway. Like them, we particularly welcomed his praise and his tribute to the 26 district councils. We trust that he and his colleagues will, in the not-too-distant future, give added scope to the councillors concerned to enable them to exercise their undoubted abilities.

It is common knowledge that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, South (Mr. Bradford) has been critical in the past of the apparent neglect of trolleybuses and other such vehicles which have been entrusted to the care of the museum. However, I understand that my hon. Friend had a two-hour discussion with the board quite recently and that the board undertook to consider carefully the points he raised and promised to let him have a detailed written report. It would appear that at least some of the complaints made by my hon. Friend are now being dealt with. We are confident that a satisfactory solution can be found at no great expense to the public purse, at least for the time being.

It has been predicted that the order might be criticised on the grounds that—

Mr. Kilfedder

The hon. Gentleman referred to vehicles at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. I think I know the case that he has in mind. Three double-decker buses were removed from Witham Street because the premises were no longer available to the museum and had to be placed in the open at Cultra. They will be renovated when the Government provide the money, which I hope will not be long delayed, for an attractive location where the buses can be displayed for tourists.

Mr. Molyneaux

The hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder) has a great deal of knowledge because the location is in his constituency. I understand that accommodation is likely to be made available as a result of some exhibits being moved around and that the vehicles will be accommodated in the not-too-distant future.

Mr. Kilfedder

There is no change.

Mr. Molyneaux

There were fears that the order might be criticised on the ground that it made no provision for a regional museum service. I would not offer any such criticism. The fact that the order brings together Northern Ireland laws relating to museums and art galleries is not an argument for centralisation. A unified service might look impressive on paper. I fear that it would do little to encourage interest in local history, which has been greatly neglected in Ulster Society.

As the Minister says, articles 9 and 11 are designed to remedy that deficiency. The former article confirms the powers of the district councils to acquire land for museum purposes. The latter provides for the payment of grants to district councils for the provision and maintenance of museums. There is a sting in the tail of the note on article 11 in the shape of a warning, repeated by the Minister, that no such finance will be available for these purposes in the foreseeable future. We on this Bench, with a vigilant eye on the public sector borrowing requirement, cannot quarrel with that view. The order at least provides the mechanism, if not the means. It provides the power to give such assistance when the nation is restored to a firmer financial condition.

3.27 am
Mr. J. Enoch Powell (Down, South)

I should like to associate with the remarks made about the Ministers, a tribute to the skill of the managers of Government business that they have contrived to put on these two orders in circumstances that have ensured a much fuller attendance than is commonly experienced at this hour of the morning.

On the subject of the so-called national museums, there are two observations that I should like to add to the excellent remarks of my colleague in the representation of County Down, the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder), in reference particularly to the Folk and Transport Museum. The first is that I think that the Minister owes the House some indication of the present volume and the intended volume of the Government's financial support for the two Ulster museums. Whatever we may say about the others, it is clear that those require substantial and continuing support from public funds. We should have some facts during the debate about what is going into them and what is intended.

Secondly, in more direct reference to the remarks of the hon. Member for Down, North, a special feature of the folk museum is its continual growth. However frequently one visits the museum—I confess that I visit it frequently—there always seems to be some addition that has been made, some improvement and some monument of the past of Ulster from somewhere in the Province that has been saved and placed in a setting where it will be of constant instruction and enjoyment. The vitality of that museum is one of its attractive and unique qualities, and it deserved to be mentioned.

I come to the district councils and their function within the scope of the order. I do not think that we ought at all to underestimate the importance of the museum functions which have been given and are now being confirmed to district councils. For Northern Ireland particularly, local museums are of great importance. In answer to a question which was asked earlier by an hon. Member who, I think has departed, yes, indeed, local museums are being created and are springing up throughout the Province. In my own constituency a local museum has recently been started in the old county town of Downpatrick. This is of special importance in Ulster, not merely because of the educational value of museums in their own areas but because by their existence they attract from private ownership into public care monuments of a past which might otherwise easily be destroyed. Locally they provide focuses for the preservation of material which can too easily be lost.

My hon. Friend the Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) was indeed right when he said that in recent periods Ulster has been guilty of neglecting its local history. The time when that accusation could be levelled at it is very rapidly passing. There is now an immense interest in preserving, while they still can be preserved, the records of local history. Certainly, the local museum will be a focus of that interest and a physical means of assisting in the work.

I personally make no complaint at this stage about the fact that the powers to grant-aid district museums are not to be implemented immediately. The district councils have few enough functions, and this is the sort of function which they could very well develop, at any rate at first, entirely upon their own resources and their own initiative. It will be time enough in years to come, when the special contribution that national funds can make has become clearer, but certainly we on this side and in this party welcome the confirmation of yet another function which district councils can and ought to discharge. [Interruption.]

The House need not be unduly alarmed by the appearance of this volume of the Statutes at Large which I have here. When one looks at the older statutes repealed in the course of the consolidation which is embodied in the order, one notices how in the middle of the last century, when local museum powers were first given, I think, by an Act of 1855, this was associated with powers to provide libraries. Incidentally, it is interesting to note that in the order we make provision for the district councils to charge for admission to their museums, whereas it was specifically provided in the original statutes that admission should be without charge. Perhaps second thoughts in this respect have been wiser.

I was observing that the original conferment of museum powers upon local bodies—they were not yet district councils—was associated with powers to provide libraries. Indeed, the growth of local libraries and of local museums has been closely associated.

Mr. Bowen Wells (Hertford and Stevenage)

I am grateful to the right hon. Member for giving way. He may understand my mounting resentment during the course of this debate when I say that in my constituency in Hertford, an ancient town of Great Britain, in the interests of economy we are closing our museum and restricting our library service. Therefore, I am particularly anxious to learn from the right hon. Gentleman whether these museums and libraries are now to be self-financing in his constituency, he having referred to their financing in the nineteenth century.

Mr.Powell

Under the terms of the order—I have no doubt that this is how it will be—there will be some finance derived from charges. However, the major charge will fall, as it properly should, upon the local authority, which will levy a rate for the purpose.

In the statutes to which I referred, it is clear that from the beginning of the service it was a local service that was locally financed through rating. Even in the present times, we find that the district councils are facing the responsibilities that they still have. When they believe that services are needed in their areas, they do not hesitate to provide them and to take the consequences in terms of the district rate. The answer is that initially it will be primarily the district rate that will support the provision and expansion of these museums.

I return to the link between the museums and libraries. I am assisted by the intervention of the hon. Member for Hertford and Stevenage (Mr. Wells). There is in Belfast a quite exceptional library. It is a library of fame which certainly extends beyond the boundaries of the island of Ireland. I refer to the Linehall library, Belfast. It is a private library that is almost 200 years old. It contains a unique literary collection. It has been the means of preserving documents of Ulster and Irish history that would otherwise have been lost. It contains copies of periodicals, for example, which are the sole copies.

For reasons that the House will well understand, that institution, though it is generously supported by its own members, encounters current financial difficulties. The question has arisen how those difficulties should be surmounted. The point that I wish to make is germane to the order. I believe that the natural source of support for a library of that sort is from the city council of Belfast. That is the first public source to which one should look, and it is the source that is most likely to preserve, despite the addition of a modicum of public money, the natural independence and ancient character of the institution. It is a cause that I believe will be engaging the attention of the Government of Northern Ireland in future. However, I take this opportunity to refer to it as an illustration of the way in which local authorities can and should support, both in the form of libraries and in the form of museums, this part of the Ulster heritage.

3.38 am
Mr. John Patten

With the leave of the House, Mr. Deputy Speaker, I should like to thank the right hon. Member for Mansfield (Mr. Concannon) for his kind remarks. He asked two specific questions, on the role of trustees and on when funding might be available to district councils to enable them to spend money on the provision of museums. The Government set great store by ensuring that those who represent the trustees have a wide range of skills. The Government will always bear in mind the need for specialists such as art specialists. We want on a board of trustees people who will disinterestedly attempt to serve the museum or museums to the best of their abilities. Certainly the Government value the range of experience that nominees from the trade union movement can add to such bodies.

Some time ago, in the case of the museum to which the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) referred, we asked for three nominations. Only one was forthcoming. The problem with the nomination was that there appeared to be some conflict of interest between the nominee in his official capacity as a trade unionist, and in his disinterested capacity as a trustee of the museum. Happily for all concerned, suitable guarantees have been given about his role, and Lord Elton has recently written to express the Governments, intention to appoint that nominee as a trustee.

Future finance of regional museums, including those already in existence, must await the availability of further finance. It is not possible for me to comment tonight on timing. Museums must take their place with other priorities. With that in mind, I greatly welcome the support for my view that was forthcoming from the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) and the right hon. Member for Down, South. I hope that I have answered the right hon. Gentleman's two points satisfactorily.

I welcome very much the remarks of the hon. Member for Down, North (Mr. Kilfedder), who referred to the extraordinary achievement of the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. It is a remarkable achievement for such a young institution. One can pick out the contributions to scholarly journals, the successful conferences in 1968 and 1978, and the role not only of the director and the others named by the hon. Gentleman, but of all the staff. I do not for one moment want the equal contributions of the staff of the Ulster museum to go without being noticed in the House. Their contribution, especially in the areas of art and antiquities, is equally substantial.

I am grateful to the hon. Member for Antrim, South for his kind remarks. I noted with interest the note that he took of my factual statement on the present role and relations of the district councils in Northern Ireland. I want to reassure him about the three buses to which he referred, which are presently at the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum. They have been there since 1969. They are all standing on concrete, and the trolley buses have been covered with a temporary cover. The bus is presently being moved under a permanent cover—although that will mean other exhibits being moved to other parts of the museum. In the professional judgment of the director and his staff, all three buses can be restored adequately. I am sure that we all look forward to a time when it is possible for that to happen, and for them to be displayed.

I was grateful to the hon. Gentleman for his remarks about the regional museum service, which was a recommendation of the Malcolm working party. An interesting idea though that may have been, a regional museum service involves a large staff and considerable public expenditure. I believe that at 1978 survey prices it would cost £300,000 to establish the service, with no executive responsibilities, and it would cost about £150,000 a year to operate. It is better to concentrate our limited resources at the sharp end of the museum service.

I shall provide for the right hon. Member for Down, South the figures that he requested. If he feels that the figures are not adequate, I shall be happy to write to him and amplify them. The grant made available to the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum in respect of its recurrent expenditure in 1980–81 is £1,182,000 and to the Ulster Museum it is £ 1,421,000. Capital grants to the Ulster Folk and Transport Museum in the year will be £516,000 and to the Ulster Museum £52,000.

I welcomed the remarks which the right hon. Gentleman made about the vitality of local museums. I noticed with interest his remarks about the library to which he referred in Belfast. I shall draw them to the attention of my noble Friend Lord Elton.

I hope that in answering the various questions of right hon. and hon. Gentlemen I have been able adequateley to substantiate the remarks I made in introducing the order, which should be commended to the House.

Question put and agreed to.

Resolved,

That the draft Museums (Northern Ireland) Order 1981, which was laid before this House on 3 February, be approved.