Defence White Paper

HC Deb 17 February 1981 vol 999 cc129-30

12. Mr. Robert Atkins

asked the Secretary of State for Defence when he expects to publish the next defence White Paper.

Mr. Nott

Shortly before Easter.

Mr. Atkins

Is my right hon. Friend aware that many of my right hon. and hon. Friends think that that Defence White Paper should continue to show the increases in expenditure that are so crucial to Britain's defence, with particular attention to the decision to be taken on the choice between the AV8B and the GR5 and the future of the European combat aircraft?

Mr. Nott

My hon. Friend will have an early opportunity, in the White Paper on public expenditure, to consider the increase in defence expenditure. It will be published before the defence White Paper. We are still considering the question of the European combat aircraft. I hope that consideration will not be further delayed. I should like to speed up the processes, but they are complicated. They involve the procurement of systems to be used 10 years or 15 years ahead. We cannot rush, but in due course we shall have an answer to the question.

Mr. Norman Atkinson

Earlier, the Secretary of State said that the Soviet Union came to the negotiating table only when nuclear weapons had been installed in Britain. Later he said that we had not yet acquired chemical weapons. When his earlier answer is applied to chemical weapons the logic is that we should now acquire chemical weapons in order to persuade the Soviet Union to discuss the abolition of such weapons.

Mr. Nott

There is logic and distorted logic. The hon. Gentleman was applying the latter rather than the former. I did not follow his reasoning.

Mr. Amery

Does my right hon. Friend agree that our response to the challenge of Soviet imperialism cannot be confined within cash limits? Does he recall that Mr. Neville Chamberlain, when he embarked on his experiment in detente with Hitler in 1938, spent 6 per cent, of the GNP on defence, and 12 per cent, in 1939 before the occupation of Prague? Does he recall that Mr. Attlee, at the height of the Korean war, spent 11 per cent, of the GNP on defence? Will he address himself to the danger of the problem rather than to the economic difficulties that face us at the present time?

Mr. Nott

It would be pleasant for all of us—for my right hon. and hon. Friends and for Opposition Members—if we were not constrained by cash limits in our private or public lives. I am afraid, however, that there are limits to the resources of this country. Cash limits help Governments to keep within those resources. I must, therefore, repeat my support for the system of cash limits. I shall take note of the pre-war examples that my right hon. Friend has given. In regard to the present position, we are increasing our defence expenditure in real terms. It is going up faster than any other programme.

Mr. Frank Allaun

That is right.

Mr. Nott

We must ensure that the output—the manner in which we use resources going into defence—is deployed in the most effective way to meet the Warsaw Pact threat. It is there and—I agree with my right hon. Friend—it is growing.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Will the Secretary of State confirm that the Defence Estimates this year will be as detailed as those presented last year, which was a pleasant state of affairs?

Mr. Nott

Yes, they will be, but we are trying to keep the price of the White Paper down.

Dr. David Clark

When the Secretary of State draws up his White Paper, will he bear in mind that many people believe that we are living beyond our means in defence terms? As a result, we are short of 3,000 men in the Armed Services because we cannot pay them. Our aircraft are not flying as they should be flying. Our tanks have not got enough fuel. We are preparing to fight on too wide a front. Is the right hon. Gentleman prepared to enter into negotiations with our NATO allies to review our role in NATO?

Mr. Nott

I agree with the hon. Gentleman that there is a danger that we will spread our effort too thinly. I agree with him, and with my predecessor, that there is a need to examine the present health of the Alliance—the phrase that my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House used. We shall be considering all these questions within a NATO context. We shall be discussing them with our allies. These are important questions. I am addressing myself to them.