Teachers (Hansard, 10 February 1981)

§ 3. Mr. Andrew F. Bennett
asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science how many teachers it is proposed will be employed by local authorities in England and Wales at 1 September 1981; and how this compares with the last three years.

§ Mr. Macfarlane
My right hon. and learned Friend made clear to the House on 16 December that the reductions then announced in educational expenditure in England in 1981-82 would have some impact on the numbers employed in the service. Provision for school teacher numbers is under review as part of the Government's expenditure plans. The staffing of schools in Wales is a matter for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Wales.

§ Mr. Bennett
In making calculations for the rate support grant and the review, what estimate has the Undersecretary made of the cost of redundancy pay for teachers, unemployment benefit for them, at least for the first 12 months, and the loss of income tax from them? Is it not true that the sums that it costs the State in those ways are almost the same as the cost of employing a teacher?

§ Mr. Macfarlane
The Department has no detailed estimates of those sums, because they are a matter for local authorities and local social services. I must make clear to the Opposition that there has been a fall in teacher numbers of about 2.2 per cent, since 1978 and during the same period pupil numbers have fallen by 4.9 per cent. I should have thought that that was an important statistic and something which the Opposition should understand fully at the outset.

§ Mr. Greenway
Does my hon. Friend agree that while a sound pupil-teacher ratio is of the utmost importance, the deployment of teachers and the quality of the work that they do are crucial to a successful education for the children of our country?

§ Mr. Macfarlane
I accept that fully. I remind the House that the overall pupil-teacher ratio stands at the best level ever—under 19:1. We certainly do not anticipate any major change in 1981.

§ Mr. Newens
Does the Under-Secretary recognise that reductions in the number of teachers inevitably result in schools being forced to cut essential subjects from the curriculums, irrespective of the fact that there may be fewer pupils? In those circumstances, surely the Minister must recognise that the quality and standard of education are being reduced.

§ Mr. Macfarlane
The hon. Gentleman will understand what my right hon. and learned Friend has said in the House more than once. I certainly do not accept what the hon. Gentleman said at the outset of his question. We do not believe that education standards are necessarily determined by resource levels.