HC Deb 22 December 1981 vol 15 cc856-7
Mr. Skinner

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is the total number of persons in receipt of retirement pensions, both single and married couples.

The Under-Secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Mrs. Lynda Chalker)

At November 1980there were 8,970,000 retirement pensions in payment. This includes 240,000 payable to pensioners living overseas and 52,000 pensioners receiving non-contributory retirement pensions, but excludes payments that consist only of graduated pension. There are estimated to be about 2½ million married couples receiving retirement pension.

Mr. Skinner

Why do those nigh on 10 million pensioners have to wait until the following November to be paid the shortfall? Under this Government that shortfall will represent one week's pension lost by November 1982. Why does not the Minister take on board the novel idea put to me at a recent meeting of pensioners, that rather than the pensions being paid out by that rickety old computer that takes a year to work they should be put on the new, whizz-bang electronic device that stops contributions almost immediately and manages to pay out to Members of Parliament within three weeks? If the pensions were put on that computer the additional one week's pension could be paid in the new year.

Mrs. Chalker

For the sake of the record, I want hon. Members to understand that almost 9 million pensions are in payment, not 10 million. As the hon. Gentleman knows, with current technology it has not been possible to pay benefits or uprate them more than annually. I look towards the future when the changes in technology will make a number of information and payment possibilities a reality. I hope that the hon. Gentleman will join me in encouraging the unions involved to accept the new technology that will bring payments and information to the public in a much better fashion than can be done at present.

Mr. Paul Dean

Does my hon. Friend agree that if the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) were to encourage some of his friends in the trade unions to stop grabbing more than their fair share it would be that much easier for the Government to ensure that pensioners and other vulnerable groups were properly protected, especially at Christmas?

Mrs. Chalker

Of course my hon. Friend is right. Only a certain amount of resources is available. We must ensure that we secure sufficient resources to pay pensioners. We have pledged ourselves to increase pensions and make good the shortfall, and that we shall definitely do. There is no doubt that the more money that is taken out of the economy, not linked to increases in productivity, the harder is made the task of paying adequate or more than adequate pensions to the growing number of pensioners for many years to come.

Mr. Foulkes

Is the Minister aware that, on the figure she has given of the number of pensioners, I have worked out—without the aid of technology—that by failing to uprate the pension by the current level of inflation of 12 per cent., and increasing it by only 9 per cent., the Government are cheating pensioners out of more than £400 million in the coming year? Is that not disgraceful? Will she rethink, and persuade the Government to rethink, that position?

Mrs. Chalker

I have already said that, with current technology, it is not possible to make good the shortfall before November 1982, which the Government are pledged to do. I must put the record straight. During the past two years the increase, based on the 15.5 per cent. rate of inflation to November 1980, is a further 10 per cent. at November 1981, and the 2 per cent. shortfall will be made up in toto. In addition, we are not changing from the historic to the forward estimating system, and therefore are not saving the £500 million, as the Labour Government did, and which is now worth £932 million. We are also paying the Christmas bonus, which the Labour Government did not do for two successive years.

Mr. Rooker

As the Minister has come to the House armed with a load of statistics, will she tell us how many of the 9 million pensioners are not receiving supplementary benefit because of the harshness of the new supplementary benefit rules? Will she also say how many of them are now paying income tax compared with the number paying income tax during the two and a half years since the Government took office?

Mrs. Chalker

As the hon. Member knows, I am only too willing to provide him with statistics when I have had adequate notice. I cannot provide the statistics that he requests on this occasion. The Government hope and pray that every pensioner who is entitled to supplementary benefit will make the claim for supplementary pension. I hope sincerely that hon. Members will do all that they can to encourage the take-up of supplementary pensions.