Pay

HC Deb 29 April 1981 vol 3 cc784-8

45. Mr. William Hamilton

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made towards the formulation of an agreed mechanism for settling pay in the Civil Service.

46. Mr. Marks

asked the Minister for the Civil Service when next she expects to meet representatives of the Civil Service unions to discuss comparability.

49. Mr. Woolmer

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what progress has been made in resolving the issues involved in the Civil Service dispute.

Mr. Hayhoe

My right hon. and noble Friend the Lord President of the Council and I met representatives of the Council of Civil Service Unions on Thursday 23 April. We told the unions that the Government were prepared to set up an independent inquiry on future pay arrangements for the Civil Service. We also told them that the Government would enter pay negotiations in 1982 without a predetermined cash limit. On the level of pay increase for 1981, we reaffirmed that 7 per cent. was the most that could be afforded from within cash limits this year. We believe that these proposals offer a reasonable basis for an end to the present dispute, and we have made it clear to the union side that we are ready to continue with talks.

Mr. Hamilton

How can the Government expect to have the respect and the confidence of civil servants in view of the Government's breathtaking ineptitude and arrogance when dealing with them in the past few months? If the hon. Gentleman is so confident of his case why does he not publish the findings of the Pay Research Unit, or subject the disagreement to arbitration? Why should civil servants trust the Government any longer?

Mr. Hayhoe

I absolutely reject the hon. Gentleman's absurd charges. Is he not aware that 2 million workers in the public services have already settled this year for pay increases within the 6 per cent. cash limit?

Several hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I propose to call first the two hon. Members whose questions are being answered with question 45.

Mr. Marks

Does not the Minister realise that civil servants who dislike strikes support the industrial action because the Government broke an election promise that was made on 10 April 1979 by the Prime Minister? Is the hon. Gentleman aware that if he fails to meet the unions with concrete proposals and if he fails to put forward some offer—other than that of 7 per cent.—he and his colleagues will bear responsibility for the difficulties that will face the country?

Mr. Hayhoe

I repudiate the charge that we have broken our election pledge. Before the election we made the position clear. My right hon. Friend, now the Secretary of State for Employment, made a formal statement on behalf of the Conservative Party about pay research. He welcomed the return of pay research, which the Labour Government had suspended for a considerable period. My right hon. Friend went on to say: Naturally, we cannot give blanket approval in advance to the way the new Pay Research Unit is working, nor an unqualified promise to implement its future recommendations. No responsible Government or Opposition can make commitments of that kind.

Mr. Woolmer

Do the Government still stand by article 8 of the International Labour Organisation's convention No. 151, which they signed in March last year? By signing it, the Government committed themselves to adopting conciliation or arbitration procedures in the event of a dispute with public service workers. If the Government still stand by the convention, which they signed only 13 months ago, why do they not invoke the conciliation and arbitration procedures, in view of the increasingly serious dispute with their own workers?

Mr. Hayhoe

I looked at the terms of the ILO convention, particularly as Tony Christopher of the Inland Revenue Staff Federation said that the Government had broken their commitment to it. My judgment, and the advice that I have been given, is that we are not breaking the convention.

Mr. Higgins

Given my hon. Friend's reply, will he re-read the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee's report on public sector pay as a matter of urgency? It drew attention to the inflationary dangers of reaching a settlement one year in exchange for promises of something better the next year? Will my hon. Friend pay particular attention to the report and give no such undertaking?

Mr. Hayhoe

My colleagues and I are well aware of the comments made about a year ago by the Treasury and Civil Service Select Committee. The proposals that we made to the Council of Civil Service Unions last week were completely in harmony with the Select Committee's report.

Mr. Fox

My hon. Friend is aware that the Shipley computer centre is one of the focal points of the eight-week dispute. Many of my constituents who are still at work would accept 7 per cent.—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question"]—and are determined to ensure that the militants who are trying—[HON. MEMBERS: "Question"]—to keep—

Mr. Speaker

Order. Hon. Members are right to tell the hon. Member to ask a question. The hon. Member must ask a question.

Mr. Fox

Is my hon. Friend aware that 450 union members are still out on strike? Is he further aware that only 20 of them turned up at a mass rally on the half-day national strike? Those involved are anxious to get back to work. Will my hon. Friend do all that he can to ensure that his formula is acceptable to them?

Mr. Hayhoe

I am aware that many of the civil servants involved in the dispute are profoundly disturbed by the action being taken, particularly when it threatens the defence of the country or causes hardship to those who are innocent and who are not involved in the dispute. The proposals that we have made form a basis upon which talks can proceed. A reasonable settlement could be made. I hope that those talks will recommence as soon as possible.

Mr. Donald Stewart

How are pay settlements in other industries relevant to the civil servants' claim?

Mr. Hayhoe

There is an interrelationship with the settlements in the private sector and the other parts of the public sector to which I referred. It would be a betrayal of the 2 million within the public service who have already settled without industrial action in accordance with the 6 per cent. cash limits if we went back on our clearly announced policy.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

I propose to call one more hon. Member from either side.

Mr. Latham

Why have the Government proposed that next year's settlement should not be covered by cash limits?

Mr. Hayhoe

I have not said that. I repeat what I said. The Government are prepared to enter pay negotiations in 1982 without a predetermined cash limit. Cash limits as a weapon, or mechanism, for the Treasury will remain, but the charge against the Government this year is that there is no possibility of negotiation because of the predetermined cash limit.

Mr. Charles R. Morris

Will the Minister come clean, address himself to the question on the Order Paper, and state frankly that no progress has been made towards agreeing a mechanism to settle the civil servants' pay claims? Is the Minister aware that the nation has experienced eight weeks of industrial action by Britain's civil servants during which the Government have done little or nothing? The House has had two ministerial statements in which nothing was said and there has been one meeting with the unions in which nothing was achieved. [HON. MEMBERS: "Question."] In that situation, the Government stance seems like that of a latter-day Mr. Micawber, waiting for something to turn up.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We must have questions, even from the Front Bench.

Mr. Morris

Forgive me, Mr. Speaker. Will the Minister direct his mind to some form of arbitration, because the British public's tolerance is not infinite?

Mr. Hayhoe

As my noble Friend and my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister have said, the 6 per cent. cash limit for this year's settlement must stand. I do not believe that there is a demand by the nation as a whole that it should be breached. Our proposals in the first meeting with the unions, and last week, would form the basis for an honourable and fair resolution of the dispute. I hope that the Civil Service unions will seriously consider what we have said, return to talks with the Government and find an honourable way to solve the dispute.

Mr. Hamilton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of the grossly unsatisfactory nature of all those answers, I beg to give notice that I shall seek to raise this matter on the Adjournment at the earliest possible moment.