§ Question again proposed, That the Bill be now read a Second time.
§ Mr. HurdWe are involved in an immensely complicated series of interlocking negotiations. If one takes away important parts of that structure in an attempt to improve it, one starts to unpick bits which have already been negotiated and there is a danger that the whole structure will collapse. We are conscious of that as the negotiations move towards what we hope will be success.
My hon. Friend raised a number of other detailed questions with which I shall not deal because there will be further opportunities to discuss them. However, he stressed the importance of tax, especially the payments to the sea bed authority which, under present law, would probably be considered as allowable business expenses. Companies feel that that is not adequate and that such payments are more like taxes. My hon. Friend the Under-Secretary of State for Industry has said that he will consider that with the Treasury to see whether it is possible to meet the concern.
The main point which has been stressed by several hon. Members is how one insures against different national Governments licensing in the same area. It is precisely because of that difficulty that we believe an international agreement, such as is being negotiated, is best, because it offers the best assurance against such a clash. We argue that national legislation cannot provide that total assurance by its very nature. Therefore, during the interim period of several years there must be co-operation and co-ordination with reciprocating countries—under the phraseology of clause 3—which have similar legislation.
The number of consortia presently involved is not enormous. Therefore it should not be an insoluble problem in the interim. That is an imperfect answer, but the alternative asked for by the Opposition is no legislation and no attempt to resolve the clash. Thus one may see wildcat operators in the same promising patch and there will be no attempt to deal with them until an international agreement comes into force.
Although the Bill does not purport to provide a perfect answer, it provides a better answer than the Opposition would provide by having no legislation. My hon. Friend the Member for Holland with Boston (Mr. Body) expressed doubts from the opposite point of view.
§ Mr. ArcherThe Minister has already made the point that it should be practicable to avoid conflict because there are so few consortia able to do exploitation work. He talks about cowboys and wildcats. Who are these wildcats'?
§ Mr. HurdBy definition one cannot say who they may be, but they might exist, as we are dealing with hypotheses. Perhaps I should summarise my argument as the right hon. and learned Member has not understood it. The best answer to the problem that he posed is the international agreement for which we are working. The worst answer would be to make no attempt, and an interim answer is what is proposed in the Bill—which, we accept, needs to be associated with co-operation with countries that propose similar legislation.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Cheadle (Mr. Normanton) mentioned the EEC. Obviously this is a matter on which we need to be in close touch with our partners and we are trying to get a clause in the convention to enable the EEC to participate in it. That is one of 'the outstanding points.
The right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West argued that under the Bill there could be no exploitation before 1988 and he asked why we needed the Bill. He fails to understand that exploration comes before exploitation. The fact that exploitation would be barred before 1988—because we do not want to prejudice international agreement—does not mean that the Bill will prevent essential exploration. The core of our case is that we see no reason why British companies should be discouraged from exploration when other countries are steaming ahead.
There must be impetus behind the international negotiations. We hope that the American review will be completed quickly and will result in a resumption of the negotiations so that they can be wound up quickly. There must also be an impetus among the companies through their investment and interest. It is no good having the companies ready without a decent framework in which to operate and no good having the framework with no companies interested in taking part. We must press ahead on both fronts, and it is to enable us to do so that the Government believe that the Bill is essential.
§ Question put, That the Bill be now read a Second time:—
§ The House divided: Ayes 136, Noes 68.
884| Division No. 163] | [10.07 pm |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) |
| Alton, David | Clegg, Sir Walter |
| Ancram, Michael | Cockeram, Eric |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Colvin, Michael |
| Banks, Robert | Cope, John |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Cranborne, Viscount |
| Beith, A. J. | Dean, Paul (North Somerset) |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Dorrell, Stephen |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Dover, Denshore |
| Best, Keith | Dunn, Robert (Dartford) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Dykes, Hugh |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John |
| Blackburn, John | Elliott, Sir William |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Faith, Mrs Sheila |
| Brinton, Tim | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Brotherton, Michael | Fisher, Sir Nigel |
| Brown, Micheal(Brigg & Sc'n) | Fletcher-Cooke, Sir Charles |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Forman, Nigel |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Freud, Clement |
| Buck, Antony | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Burden, Sir Frederick | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Butcher, John | Goodhew, Victor |
| Goodlad, Alastair | Nelson, Anthony |
| Gower, Sir Raymond | Neubert, Michael |
| Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) | Normanton, Tom |
| Grist, Ian | Onslow, Cranley |
| Gummer, John Selwyn | Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby) |
| Hamilton, Hon A. | Page, Richard (SW Herts) |
| Haselhurst, Alan | Penhaligon, David |
| Hawksley, Warren | Pollock, Alexander |
| Heddle, John | Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) |
| Henderson, Barry | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Hicks, Robert | Rathbone, Tim |
| Hogg, Hon Douglas (Gr'th'm) | Renton, Tim |
| Hordern, Peter | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon |
| Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) | Roberts, M. (Cardiff NW) |
| Howells, Geraint | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Rossi, Hugh |
| Hurd, Hon Douglas | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Shelton, William (Streatham) |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Speed, Keith |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Speller, Tony |
| Le Marchant, Spencer | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Stewart, A. (E Renfrewshire) |
| Lloyd, Ian (Havant & W'loo) | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Loveridge, John | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Thompson, Donald |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Thornton, Malcolm |
| MacGregor, John | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Trippier, David |
| Major, John | Trotter, Neville |
| Marlow, Tony | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Viggers, Peter |
| Mates, Michael | Waddington, David |
| Mather, Carol | Wainwright, R.(Colne V) |
| Maude, Rt Hon Sir Angus | Wakeham, John |
| Mawby, Ray | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir D. |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Watson, John |
| Mellor, David | Wells, Bowen |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Wheeler, John |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Wickenden, Keith |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Williams, D.(Montgomery) |
| Moate, Roger | Wolfson, Mark |
| Morgan, Geraint | |
| Murphy, Christopher | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| Myles, David | Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and Mr. Tony Newton. |
| Neale, Gerrard |
| NOES | |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Cryer, Bob |
| Atkinson, N.(H'gey,) | Cunliffe, Lawrence |
| Bennett, Andrew(St'kp't N) | Cunningham, Dr J. (W'h'n) |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Dalyell, Tam |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd) |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Midd't'n & P) | Dixon, Donald |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Dormand, Jack |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | Douglas, Dick |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Duffy, A. E. P. |
| Cowans, Harry | Eadie, Alex |
| Craigen, J. M. | Eastham, Ken |
| Edwards, R. (W'hampt'n S E) | Morton, George |
| Ellis, R. (NE D'bysh're) | Newens, Stanley |
| Foster, Derek | Parry, Robert |
| George, Bruce | Prescott, John |
| Golding, John | Roberts, Albert (Normanton) |
| Grant, George (Morpeth) | Robertson, George |
| Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Rooker, J. W. |
| Hamilton, W. W. (C'tral Fife) | Silkin, Rt Hon J. (Deptford) |
| Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Skinner, Dennis |
| Haynes, Frank | Smith, Rt Hon J. (N Lanark) |
| Hogg, N. (E Dunb't'nshire) | Snape, Peter |
| Home Robertson, John | Spearing, Nigel |
| Jones, Barry (East Flint) | Spriggs, Leslie |
| Kerr, Russell | Tinn, James |
| Lamond, James | Welsh, Michael |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | White, Frank R. |
| McCartney, Hugh | Wigley, Dafydd |
| McDonald, Dr Oonagh | Winnick, David |
| McElhone, Frank | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| McWilliam, John | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Mason, Rt Hon Roy | |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Mitchell, R. C. (Soton Itchen) | Mr. Ron Leighton and Mr. Allen McKay |
| Morris, Rt Hon C. (O'shaw) |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill read a Second time.
§ Bill committed to a Special Standing Committee pursuant to Standing Order No. 40 (Committal of Bills).