§ The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw)I have been asked to reply. My right hon. Friend is making an official visit to India.
§ Mr. DubsIs the right hon. Gentleman aware of the increasing worry about the levels of lead in the air and elsewhere coming from petrol? Will he consider the recent report of the Inner London Education Authority, which suggests that lead levels in 23 school playgrounds are above the accepted safety levels? Is he aware that there are some who fear that the high levels of lead are a contributory factor to under-achievement and behavioural difficulties among children in inner city schools? Will he ensure that the views of the Department of Energy do not prevail over those of the Departments of Health and Social Security, Transport and Environment, and that the health of our children is the first consideration?
§ Mr. WhitelawI can assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government as a whole take a serious view of this matter and are carefully considering what is right to be done.
§ Mr. NeedhamDuring the course of his busy day will my right hon. Friend advise the House on the standards that local councils should apply to proposals to build large-scale nuclear underground shelters? Will he condemn the methods used by some fly-by-night operators who put forward such schemes using terror as a method of selling their dubious, highly unsatisfactory and probably unnecessary wares?
§ Mr. WhitelawThe Home Office has issued detailed guidance for shelters in two recent publications, which set out what it believes to be the most suitable form of domestic nuclear shelter. If there are people acting as my hon. Friend has described, they are wrong. There are reputable shelters that can be purchased.
§ Mr. FootWhat advice has the right hon. Gentleman been giving to the Prime Minister over recent days, or even today, on the relationship between high unemployment and the crime rate? Does he agree with the somewhat extraordinary view that the Prime Minister seems to hold that high unemployment, especially high youth unemployment, is not related to, or is not primary cause of some disturbances? Does he agree with the recent report made by the chief constable of Northumbria, which points a very different moral?
§ Mr. WhitelawSurely the whole House will agree that there can never be any justification for crime, whether it be social conditions, unemployment or anything else. There can never be any excuse for criminal activity.
§ Mr. FootWe are not talking about justification of crime. We are trying to deal with the causes. A commission has been set up that will try to examine some of the causes. Has the right hon. Gentleman read some of the studies that have been undertaken? I am sure that he should have done. If not, I hope that he will read yesterday's edition of the Daily Star, which gave a full account of what was said by the chief constable of 428 Northumbria. He said that half of the crimes recently committed in Northumbria were committed by young people who were unemployed. Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider that the report raises serious matters and confirms what I should think is obvious to most people—namely, that high unemployment, especially among young people, causes grave events, or contributes to their cause? Will the right hon. Gentleman comment on this report from a chief constable in his own area?
§ Mr. WhitelawIn my capacity as Home Secretary I study all these reports most carefully. I consider the various evidence that is brought forward on criminal activities. It is important for me to do so. There are different reasons for crime in our nation today which many people rehearse and which I study carefully. I return to my simple point that once we start saying that there is some excuse for criminal activities we shall be making a great mistake.
§ Mr. FootThat is something altogether different. Why does the right hon. Gentleman believe that the rate of unemployment has gone up 48 per cent. in his area? The chief constables are talking about that. Cannot he and the Government listen to what is being said all over the country on those matters? When will the Government do something about that rise in unemployment?
§ Mr. WhitelawOf course I am listening to such matters. I can only add to what my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister and other Ministers have said consistently, that the Government believe that the policies which we are pursuing are the best way, in the long run, of providing real jobs. That must be our purpose.
§ Mr. BeithAs the Sandwell local government workers have thrown out the closed shop rule under which Miss Joanna Harris was deprived of her job, will the Home Secretary ask the Prime Minister to congratulate Miss Harris on the stand which she has taken? Will he also ask the Prime Minister to go back to Strasbourg and tell the European Commission of Human Rights that it was never the Government's intention to defend British Rail's sacking of three people on the same basis, and that they will do everything in their power to give back the jobs to those people?
§ Mr. WhitelawWith regard to the hon. Gentleman's second point, the Government's position was made clear at the time. Many people will applaud the action of the employees of Sandwell council. They will also hope that, as a result of that, Sandwell council will take back Miss Joanna Harris.
§ Q2. Mr. Robert Atkinsasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 16 April.
§ Mr. WhitelawI have been asked to reply.
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I have just given.
§ Mr. AtkinsWill my right hon. Friend join with many of my hon. Friends in deploring the activities of certain Socialist-controlled towns in the so-called "Republic of South Yorkshire," which have banned recruiting by local regiments in schools controlled by them and which have also prevented local regimental bands from performing at local council functions? Is that not a disgraceful slap in the face to all those brave men and women from South Yorkshire who fought during two world wars and at other times?
§ Mr. WhitelawIf the Sheffield council were to take that course, I should have thought that that would be thoroughly unwise. I do not believe that it would carry the people and the ratepayers in that area with it. There are good military traditions in Yorkshire which many people in that part of the world support. Therefore, I hope that, if the Sheffield council were minded to pursue that course, it would realise what a stupid and unwise action it was taking.
§ Mr. StrawWill the Government submit evidence to the Scarman inquiry in support of the Prime Minister's contention that unemployment is not only not an excuse for the Brixton riots but is not a cause of those riots?
§ Mr. WhitelawI shall carefully consider what the Government will say to the Scarman inquiry. Those matters come into my area as Home Secretary.
§ Mr. FellIn view of the threat from the Civil Service trade unions to British people who wish to travel abroad this weekend, does my right hon. Friend know whether the offer by the Minister of State, Civil Service Department, to the unions has been taken up yet?
§ Mr. WhitelawNot yet. With regard to the threat of disruption of traffic over Easter, it is worth remembering that, at the start of this unfortunate dispute, the Civil Service unions said that they did not want to harm the public. If they proceed as they apparently intend to over the weekend, there is no doubt that they will harm the public. I hope that they will decide to talk and will not go back on what they promised.
§ Mr. CunliffeWhat Easter message will the Prime Minister send to the thousands of young people and school leavers in my area, many of whom are leaving school when there are only four job vacancies? How does he suggest that they should share the joys of Easter when their first job will be to join the dole queue, which in my area already consists of 5,000 unemployed?
§ Mr. WhitelawIf he was fair, the hon. Gentleman would acknowledge how much the Government have done through the youth opportunities programme and training schemes for young school leavers. Such schemes are important and right at times of difficult employment conditions.
§ Mr. JesselWith regard to the Brixton riots, will my right hon. Friend stress that the large number of police in Brixton is inevitable because of the extent of crime, such as mugging and robbery, in that area?
§ Mr. WhitelawThose matters will come into Lord Scarman's inquiry. Therefore, I do not wish to prejudge much of what will follow from that. It is true that there was a high crime rate in Brixton. It is the job of the police to deal with criminal acts and to protect law-abiding citizens. That is their job, and they must have the necessary resources to carry it out.
§ Mr. Greville JannerWill the right hon. Gentleman have time to consider with the Prime Minister the problems of cities such as Leicester, with large immigrant communities which are remarkably well and happily integrated and far removed in condition from the sad borough of Brixton? Nevertheless, such cities are anxious about the growth of unemployment, homelessness and 430 hardship. Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that those conditions provide fertile soil for unrest, unhappiness, violence and extremism in all its forms?
§ Mr. WhitelawI join the hon. and learned Gentleman in paying tribute to community relations in Leicester, which have been conducted with care. He and many of those concerned with such affairs in Leicester can take credit for what has happened there. I hope that that will long continue. Of course, there are difficulties with social conditions, upon which extremists thrive. We must make sure that the extremists are not successful, as, alas, they seem to be sometimes in different areas.
§ Q4. Mr. Brothertonasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 April.
§ Mr. WhitelawI have been asked to reply.
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier.
§ Mr. BrothertonWhen the Prime Minister returns from her travels, will my right hon. Friend tell her of the grave concern felt about her reply in the House last week to the effect that the Civil Service had been reduced by only 35,000 since the Government came into office? Is not that a derisorily small total? Would it be possible slightly to increase the 7 per cent. pay offer to the Civil Service provided there was a massive reduction in their numbers?
§ Mr. WhitelawI would not have thought that 35,000 was a derisory number. I remind my hon. Friend of our target reduction figure of 100,000 by 1984, to which we must adhere and which is right. My right hon. and noble Friend the Lord President has made clear the Government's belief that the 7 per cent. offer is fair and that we are standing by it.
§ Mr. WoolmerAs the Government profess to be anxious to resolve the Civil Service dispute and as, presumably, considerable discussions have been taking place in Government Departments on a new pay system, can the right hon. Gentleman say whether, if the unions were to meet the Government, the Government would now be able to put specific proposals before the unions for proper discussion and negotiation?
§ Mr. WhitelawMy right hon. and noble Friend the Lord President has offered the unions the opportunity to come to talks. When they do so, that is the moment such discussions should take place.
§ Viscount CranborneWill my right hon. Friend take time today to condemn retrospective legislation, both in principle and practice?
§ Mr. WhitelawYes, Sir.
§ Mr. Stephen RossHas the right hon. Gentleman seen the report published yesterday by British Rail, containing the threat that fares are likely to go up again next November? As this matter is before the Cabinet at the moment, does he appreciate that the poor, hard-pressed commuters are not prepared to pay more unless they receive a better service and more modern facilities which go with it? Will the Government come to a rapid decision on that matter?
§ Mr. WhitelawThe hon. Gentleman echoes the views of many people who use our railway services, which are now facing considerable problems. There must be discussions so that those problems can be resolved.
§ Q5. Mr. Foxasked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for Thursday 16 April.
§ Mr. WhitelawI have been asked to reply.
I refer my hon. Friend to the reply which I gave earlier.
§ Mr. FoxDoes my right hon. Friend agree that it is most welcome news that last year the United Kingdom had a balance of £700 million in its trade with the rest of the Common Market, as opposed to a deficit of £2,600,000 in 1979? Does not that show the advantages of being a member of the Common Market and highlight the ludicrous position of the Labour Party in talking about taking Britain out of the Common Market?
§ Mr. WhitelawI agree with my hon. Friend. Those figures are important. The Labour Party has threatened to take the country out of the Community. Mercifully, I do not believe that it will ever have the opportunity, but even if it did I do not believe that it would do so. That would be too mad, even for that party.
§ Mr. CryerDoes the Home Secretary accept that, until action was taken by the Civil Service, it faced a continuing campaign of sneers and denigration from the Government and Conservative Back Benchers? If he is so anxious to 432 avoid difficulties over Easter, why does not he treat the civil servants' claim in the same way as the Government treated the miners?
§ Mr. WhitelawI do not accept the accusation about a campaign of sneers and denigration. I certainly pay tribute to the very important work of the Civil Service in providing a service to the public as a whole. What I regret is that, having made very clear at the start of the dispute that they did not wish to harm the public in any way, civil servants' actions are now, unfortunately, doing just that.
§ Mr. MellorDoes my right hon. Friend share the concern that I am sure is common to hon. Members on both sides of the House over the unlawful killing of Barry Prosser in Winson Green Prison? Is it not the case that Prosser must have been killed either by inmates or, more likely, by prison officers? Is it not a disgrace to the British prison system that this should have happened? Is it not clear that a full inquiry must be instituted? Does he agree that the fact that a senior prison officer has been acquitted of the offence is not a sufficient disposal of the matter?
§ Mr. WhitelawI understand that the papers in this case have gone to the Director of Public Prosecutions and the coroner has made various statements. It would be quite wrong for me to comment on these matters in those circumstances.