HC Deb 07 April 1981 vol 2 cc806-8
15. Mr. Brinton

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what advice he is now able to give to local education authorities on the continued provision of instrumental music tuition, both in and out of school.

22. Mr. Hal Miller

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science whether he has yet reached any conclusions about the Forbes judgment on the matter of charging for music lessons by the Hereford and Worcester local education authority.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

Local education authorities that now charge for instrumental music tuition will need to examine the terms of the judgment, in consultation with their legal advisers. I am considering whether the judgment calls for action on the part of Government, but I have no current proposals for legislation.

Mr. Brinton

I thank my right hon. and learned Friend for that answer. Does he agree that the recent case to which he referred, brought with the backing of the National Union of Teachers, has gravely imperilled music teaching in many schools? Will he confirm once again that he is urgently seeking to ascertain whether legislation is necessary so that parents may voluntarily pay part or the whole of fees for instrumental tuition?

Mr. Carlisle

I agree with what my hon. Friend says. I think that the only effect of that case is to put at risk a great deal of instrumental teaching in schools. There is nothing new in charging for such teaching. More than 40 local education authorities do so at present. Clearly, they will now have to review the provision that they make. On the second part of my hon. Friend's question, I am considering what guidance and help I might give. As I have said, however, at the moment I have no proposals to bring immediate legislation before the House.

Mr. Miller

Does my right hon. and learned Friend accept that the Hereford and Worcester local education authority, in whose area the case arose, is certainly of the view that amendment to the legislation is necessary to permit continuation of the practice of charging, which enabled the authority to provide new instruments for the purpose as well as employing peripatetic music teachers?

Mr. Carlisle

I am aware that that view has been expressed by many people. I ask my hon. Friend to accept that one must consider very carefully before deciding to change the law in this area. The matter needs a great deal of thought, which we are giving to it.

Mr. Flannery

Before the Minister uses that judgment in the way that he proposes, will he realise that the man who brought the case has since accused the authorities of cutting even more deeply than previously? Is he aware that the judgment will be used to curtail music teaching by reactionary authorities all over the place which would cut deeper and deeper in any case whether the judgment existed or not?

Mr. Carlisle

I am not using that judgment in any way. In many parts of this country it has been normal, accepted practice to make a charge for individual instrumental tuition. I therefore confirm that the effect of the judgment is that many of those local education authorities are now reviewing their practice to see whether they can continue the service.

Mr. Anthony Grant

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that the top priority, as recommended by the Gulbenkian report, should be to help the very limited number of specialist music schools, of which the Purcell school at Harrow-on-the-Hill is one example, because it is at those schools that the orchestras and musicians of the future will develop?

Mr. Carlisle

As my hon. Friend knows, we have recently announced that we are grant-aiding places in the three major music schools in this country which were not grant-aided under the previous proposals.

Mr. Kinnock

Is the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that music and musical tuition standards in this country are jeopardised far more by the cuts and the loss of peripatetic teachers as well as other music teachers than by any judgment in the Jones case? Does he agree with me and many others who believe that authorities making charges for music lessons inside schools, on the curriculum, whether in music theory or instrumental music, are breaking section 53 of the Education Act 1944? Does he now intend to bring before the House a new miscellaneous provisions Bill to change the law in a way which would be acceptable to Tories but utterly abominable to anyone who cares about music and music tuition in this country?

Mr. Carlisle

If local education authorities are providing music tuition which is part of the curriculum in the school in circumstances similar to those obtaining in the Hereford and Worcester case, clearly the judgment of the court applies. The hon. Gentleman will appreciate that that judgment concerned the provision of musical tuition in the particular circumstances of that case. On the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, I repeat that I have no current proposals for introducing legislation, but I am reviewing the whole situation. One has to accept that, if an authority was attempting to retain the service and to obtain some of the income through a modest charge, that has now been prevented and therefore the service becomes at risk.