§ 7. Mr. Norman Hoggasked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will guarantee that the agreement made by the last Government on firemen's pay will be honoured in the present pay negotiations.
§ Mr. YoungerThe Government have indicated the limit on their contribution through rate support grant for local authority pay increases generally in the coming year. It is for the national joint council to decide on firemen's pay, and I understand that it will meet again tomorrow.
§ Mr. HoggThat is an unacceptable reply. The right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues made it clear in the past that they supported the existing agreement for firemen, and they should now honour their word.
§ Mr. YoungerAll that we have done is to make clear to local authorities how much money the country can afford to allow for local authority pay increases generally. It is our duty to make that clear, and we should have been very remiss if we had not done so.
§ Mr. Bill WalkerDoes my right hon. Friend agree that we now have a situation of free collective bargaining in which the amount of money available in the private or 425 public sector determines that which is available for pay? It is up to the negotiating body to determine how that pay is to be allocated.
§ Mr. YoungerI appreciate what my hon. Friend says. It is surely of the greatest importance that everyone in the country should realise as quickly as possible that there is not a bottomless pit of money that can be used for any purpose. It is essential to know what the country can afford when negotiating pay agreements in the public sector.
§ Mr. Harry EwingHow can the Secretary of State come to the Dispatch Bo with such impertinence and insult the firemen in the way that he has done today? Is he not aware that his right hon Friend who is now Home Secretary gave an unqualifed guarantee to the firemen before the election that a new Conservative Government would honour the commitment that was given? In view of the conversation that is going on, I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman does not take advice from the Under-Secretary on anything. Is the Secretary of State not aware of the commitment given by the Home Secretary to the firemen? This whole Question Time is an examination of one pre-election promise betrayal after another.
§ Mr. YoungerAs usual, the hon. Gentleman tries rather too hard and spoils his case. It is true that my right hon. Friend gave an undertaking similar to that which the hon. Gentleman has mentioned, but that does not exonerate me from my responsibility to tell the country now what it can afford to pay for the support of local authority pay.