HC Deb 11 November 1980 vol 992 cc175-7
Mr. John Carlisle

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he is satisfied that the additional staff appointed to investigate fraudulent claims are of a sufficient number.

Mr. Prentice

This matter is kept under constant review. In my reply to my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdonshire (Mr. Major) on 13 February 1980 I gave details of the Government's special campaign against social security fraud and abuse during 1980–81; of an additional 1,050 staff, 270 were specifically allocated to the investigation of suspected fraud. I shall be considering the adequacy of these measures as part of my analysis of the current year's results.

Mr. Carlisle

Will my right hon. Friend agree that the additional office staff have had a deterrent effect upon intending offenders? Will he also agree that it is possibly one area of public expenditure where we may increase the number of staff because of the return gained?

Mr. Prentice

Yes, Sir. There is a quantifiable result, which we are measuring by rather more sophisticated measures than we have used in the past. [Laughter] Well, most people in this country take the view that fraud and abuse should be dealt with, whatever view is taken by Labour Members. But my hon. Friend is correct in saying that in addition to that there is the deterrent effect, which cannot be quantified but, nevertheless, may be much larger than the figures on paper would suggest.

Mr. Rooker

If the Minister is using these sophisticated measures, why is it that we cannot have a progress report on the effectiveness of the measures before the end of the current financial year, which is what the Minister has said, bearing in mind that the amount of benefit to be recovered will rise from less than £100,000 a week to more than £1 million a week? If the difference is so great—and those are the Minister's figures—why cannot the House and the country have a progress report before the end of the year?

Mr. Prentice

Because the House will want—I think that the hon. Member was confirming this—a figure to be attached to the quantifiable savings. [Interruption] Yes, the target of £50 million has been quoted. I have answered questions in the House before saying that we appear to be on target in regard to that figure. But a quantifiable figure will have the greatest possible meaning when it is at the end of a complete financial year and therefore can be compared with previous figures for previous financial years.

Mr. Ashley

Will the Minister confirm reports that the claims made by his Department about the income derived from these investigations are wildly exaggerated? Could he estimate the number of genuine claimants who have been deterred from claiming by virtue of his very strident campaign against a small minority?

Mr. Prentice

The answer to the first part of the question is "No, Sir". There is no evidence whatever that our expectations in the campaign will be disappointed. With regard to genuine claimants being deterred, the right hon. Member is exactly 180 degrees wrong. A number of people, particularly very elderly people, still feel embarrassed about applying for benefits to which they are entitled, and one of the reasons for that is that the scroungers have got the whole system a bad name.