§ Motion made, and Question proposed,
§ That this House do now adjourn.—[Mr. Boscawen.]
11.58 pm§ Mr. John G. Blackburn (Dudley, West)I am pleased to have been selected for this Adjournment debate. Naturally, I am sad that the topic of the debate is the role of the Dudley skill-centre. However, it reveals the true spirit of the work of the House of Commons when the opportunity is granted for an hon. Member to raise a local issue upon which deep and strongly-held views can be expressed. I intend, with your permission, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to exercise that right tonight, particularly to such a packed House and a crowded Strangers' Gallery !
At the outset, may I outline to the House those who support the retention of the skillcentre. First, the Conservative Party in Dudley wants the centre to remain open. The Socialist party in Dudley holds a similar view, as do the local chamber of commerce, the trades council, the trade unions—I am a full-time member and office bearer—and local industry, local management, and the staff and trainees of the local training centre. I pay tribute to the local authority for its excellent work in preparing the case for the retention of the skillcentre. In parliamentary terms, the retention of the centre is supported by the right hon. Member for Dudley, East (Dr. Gilbert), the right hon. and learned Member for Warley, West (Mr. Archer) and my hon. Friends the Members for The Wrekin (Mr. Hawksley) and Bromsgrove and Redditch (Mr. Miller). I, as the local Member, give it my blessing.
Having gone through those who support the retention of the skillcentre, we must consider who opposes it. It is an easy task for me to outline who it is—the Manpower Services Commission. Historically, it was not the initial choice of the MSC to locate a skillcentre in Dudley. The choice was Wolverhampton, but the proposal was frustrated by the attitude of the local authority there. At once, and to its credit, Dudley seized the opportunity 10 years ago and a purpose-built centre was opened.
894 It is the unanimous opinion of local interests that the skillcentre is an integral part of the local economy, which has an industrial structure heavily and traditionally based on metal working. We are speaking about the heart of the Black Country, with Cradley Heath, Brierley Hill, Quarry Bank, Gornal and Sedgley so dominant.
Dudley is not significantly different from other older industrial areas, apart from the excellence of the men and women who are beyond compare for their industry. However, it is an area that has traditionally been among the most prosperous manufacturing areas of this country. From the first metal pen nib to the chain of Cradley, all have gained a world-wide reputation of high repute.
Over the past three years, my constituency has been ravaged by redundancies—the closure of the Bilston steel works in the northern part, the proposed phased redundancies at the Round Oak steel works in the centre and the closure of the Cookley steel works in the southern section.
Against that background, the cry is for a resurgence of small manufacturing companies. The excellent local authority and, with due modesty, my own efforts are showing remarkable results that are worthy of commendation.
The problem is retraining employees from former and existing industries. The skillcentre is vital to us. Prior to my election to the House, I spent 17 years in the engineering industry, walking the avenues of the industrial scene, and I speak with authority when I say that the skills that are required from the Dudley skillcentre, which is valued at more than £3 million, are plate and structural steelwork, pneumatic and hydraulic fitting and electric are welding. The latter two courses have one of the highest occupancy rates in the country, while there is a demand for white—furnace—bricking and press tool fittings.
The centre, with the excellence of its staff, and anchored by a 30-year lease, must be retained. The entire local industrial strategy is dependent on it. The future known phased redundancies from local steel works are geared to it. On this issue, I fight the battle for my people with all the power at my command.
895 The manner in which the tragic saga has been handled is a prime candidate for a searching inquiry. The written decision was conveyed to me by hand at the House at noon on Wednesday 14 May. That correspondence contained the press release of the decision, dated 23 April 1980. The decision had been made three weeks earlier.
The other options do not stand up to investigation. It is accepted that there is insufficient spare capacity at more distant centres. In addition, the new centre is blatantly too far away. It is served by an hourly bus service. The alleged savings resulting from the proposed closure of the Dudley skilcentre are not certain, established or possible. They are alien to reality for sound economic reasons. The current staff will have to be retrained to serve the construction unit, or they will have to be transferred to Red-ditch or other centres.
The pressures on the skillcentres at Birmingham, Handsworth and Wolverhampton will be considerable. The buildings have been purpose built and are on 30-year leases. It will not be easy to relet them. Access to Redditch is difficult. Does the Minister appreciate that there has been a 300 per cent. increase in the number of sponsored places at Dudley skillcentre in the past nine months? That figure is rising.
The regional office of the Manpower Services Commission alleges that public transport is difficult. That allegation is utterly without foundation. A bus service serves the northern, western and southern perimeters of the industrial estate. During the past 10 days, I have walked from all those bus stops to Third Avenue. At the most, it took me five minutes to do so. I should add that I am certainly not an athlete. In addition, a bus service runs through the centre of the estate.
Is the Minister prepared to risk Dudley's established skillcentre—which has gained a high reputation and which has an excellent management—for an experiment at Redditch? Let us suppose that the experiment fails. There would then be extra expenditure and duplication. The Redditch centre is badly sited. The Manpower Services Commission must take responsibility for a serious blunder. Indeed, that blunder will be compounded by its insistence on conceiving this 896 unwanted child.
The Dudley centre is an integral part of an established economic unit of two centuries' standing. I visited the centre this week, and I noted that the courses are over-subscribed for months ahead. I submit that I have given ample evidence to support the retention of that skillcentre.
There is one particularly compelling reason for maintaining the skillcentre. I am delighted to announce that the local authority and I have been working closely together since 26 March, when my right hon. and learned Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his Budget statement and spoke of enterprise zones. The authority has made a submission for a 510-acre site which is to be developed as an enterprise zone. An integral part of that scheme is the provision of a skillcentre.
Is the House aware that a Minister will visit the Dudley skillcentre in 24 days' time in order to consider its excellence? The centre is in an area that is undergoing industrial redevelopment. I have been supplied with a document that was commissioned by the Manpower Services Commission. It contains 82 pages and refers to the shortage of skills in the Dudley and Sandwell areas. It is ironic that the commission wants the numbers at the skillcentre to be reduced drastically.
It does not trouble my conscience to tell the House that such a policy shows the madness of the asylum and the confusion of the slaughterhouse, supported by the assets of the poor house. I plead with the Minister to consider my proposals. The Dudley skillcentre, which meets a valid local need, should remain in full operation until the experimental centre at Redditch is well established, and the entire matter should be subject to further review, preferably on 31 March 1982.
I commend the Minister to accept these constructive and bona fide proposals. The Dudley skillcentre must remain open. On sober and responsible reflection, the case for its retention is overwhelming. A small team of local interests and representatives from the Manpower Services Commission could study the existing courses. In the proposals announced on 23 April I was horrified to discover that consultations are to take place with the regional 897 council of the TUC in Birmingham. It is a local skillcentre and there should be local input. There is boundless enthusiasm for it.
I have discharged my responsibility and vow to my people to fight for this skillcentre tonight. I cannot be a party to its closure. If it closes, the Minister and the Government will be making a mistake.
§ The Under-Secretary of State for Employment (Mr. Jim Lester)It seems to be my fate to speak on Thursday evenings about the Manpower Services Commission's decision on rationalising the skillcentre network. Last week it was Treforest: this week it is Dudley. As my hon. Friend the Member for Dudley, West (Mr. Blackburn) said, this is a proper use of the House, at whatever time and before whatever audience. Thanks to the work of our helpful friends in Hansard, the debate can reach a much wider audience than is present in the House.
First, may I extend to my hon. Friend the same understanding of his concern as I extended to the hon. Member for Pontypridd (Mr. John)? I appreciate, and so, I believe, does the Manpower Services Commission, the genuine disappointment that local people must feel when a facility such as the skillcentre at Dudley is closed, even if there are other facilities only six miles away. My hon. Friend has listed an impressive array of supporters. I know that he has put up a vigorous and well-informed fight on behalf of his constituents, which deserves congratulation, whatever the outcome.
Decisions to close skillcentres can never be taken lightly, and I am convinced that the Manpower Services Commission has not done so. However, it had to look at wider issues and at the shape of the skillcentre network as a whole. Any reshaping and updating of an organisation is bound to mean that some gain and others lose in terms of convenience and immediate access to services.
The MSC did its best to find out what local interests see as the main problems in reshaping the network and to come up with proposals that minimise inconvenience and maximise advantages. My hon. 898 Friend, who has presented his case with great moderation and considerable background experience, would, I am sure, acknowledge that the MSC's regional officers have made some effort to keep him fully briefed on the MSC's arguments for closing Dudley skillcentre and to take account of his points of concern.
In considering the future shape of the skillcentre network, the MSC's aims, which I endorse, are to get a network of skillcentres located where industry can make most use of them and where a majority of individuals can easily get access to training. At the same time, the MSC's proposals are designed to provide more training, but in fewer centres and, therefore, at less cost.
The closures will also enable the commission to put more resources into offering direct training assistance to employers and their employees, through the direct training services. These services are especially valuable in helping new and developing industry, of the sort that my hon. Friend is helping to encourage in Dudley. We pay tribute to the work that he is doing.
The MSC has paid a great deal of attention to the ways in which individuals will be affected—whether they will have access to alternative training, how difficult the transport arrangements are, whether special transport needs to be provided, how many people will benefit from new alternative centres opening and from classes being moved from closed centres, and so on. I truly believe that the MSC has made positive attempts to ensure, with the help of local interests, that local training needs—of both employers and trainees—are met, whether through skillcentres or otherwise.
The people of Dudley will, of course, see things a little differently. They must wonder why a 250-place centre that was established only seven years ago, built by the Pensnett trading estate to fit the MSC's requirements, should now be abandoned.
Dudley skillcentre was, as my hon. Friend has said, built on a backlash. Wolverhampton, the MSC's original choice, did not want one. The Dudley centre was built instead to fill the breach. Wolverhampton changed its mind and a very good centre was built there, only six miles away, which opened in 1975.
899 Since then Wolverhampton has gone from strength to strength and does very well in recruiting and placing people in the area. The use of the centre at Dudley, on the other hand, has gone down. Although just recently the centre has managed to improve things by attracting a good deal of sponsored training from industry, people are not coming forward for training under the TOPS scheme, despite the unemployment level in Dudley. This has to be seen against the background that more than 25 per cent. of the places available at Birmingham's main centre eight miles away are unfilled, as are 15 per cent. of those at Wolverhampton, as well as nearly 20 per cent. of those at the Castle Bromwich centre.
That brings us to the nub of the issue. There are now, already, too many skill-centre places all serving a small area, the western part of the West Midland conurbation. They are, moreover, wrongly positioned to benefit people from a wider catchment area. In saying that, I want to make clear that the MSC has decided that Dudley should be closed not purely because a new centre has been built at Redditch but because there are already three biggish centres in the area, which is too many. The presence of a new centre at Redditch to the south will add to the problem.
Mr. hon. Friend has asked why a new centre is being built at Redditch when there are clearly occupancy problems in the area and why the MSC should proceed with this centre rather than cutting its losses and keeping what is already working. The first point to be made is that not to proceed with Redditch, or to put it in mothballs, would be costly, too. Nearly £2 million had been spent by the time falling occupancy and changed circumstances encouraged the MSC to reexamine the position. Moreover, the MSC owns Redditch, whereas the Dudley skillcentre is one of the most expensive to rent in the country.
Secondly, my hon. Friend suggests that the Redditch centre is experimental. I prefer to describe it as progressive. It has been deliberately constructed to make changes in the class—mix at the centre easy and quick—essential if a centre is to be flexible in response to the demands of local industry. Its experimental nature 900 is one of the reasons why the centre has been expensive to build. However, the basic range of courses is still available. We are trying to introduce flexibility of operation into the network. That is what we are trying to do at Redditch.
Third, and most important, a look at a map of the area will explain why the decision was reached. My hon. Friend knows the geography better than I do, even down to the timings of buses and walking, though I am not unfamiliar with it. But it must be apparent that a network of centres sited at Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Redditch must be better placed to help more people than a network sited at Birmingham, Wolverhampton and Dudley. A network including Redditch rather than Dudley will still leave everyone in the conurbation within 10 miles of a skillcentre, a distance that would make people in many parts of the country—the South-West or East Anglia, for instance—jump for joy.
I have already said that Dudley is not being shut purely because Redditch is being opened. But there is one very direct sense in which the two are linked. Given that the Manpower Services Commission wants to proceed with Redditch because of its good location to serve a wider catchment area and its experimental nature, staff must be found for it. As my hon. Friend knows, the Manpower Services Commission is subject to restraints on staffing as much as other parts of the public sector. The simple equation is that if Redditch is to be opened, as we hope it will be, towards the end of this year, staff have to be found from closing another centre. The obvious centre in the circumstances is Dudley, which is conveniently similar in size.
That is the background for the MSC's decision to close the Dudley skillcentre and open a new one at Redditch. I now turn to the effects, which are obviously of great concern to my hon. Friend.
First, as I have already said, more people will be within relatively easy striking distance of a centre. The MSC has undertaken to provide special transport if needed for those living in the Kidderminster, Droitwich, Brierley Hill and Halesowen areas to get them to Redditch centre, so they are likely to be better off than they would have been in trying to get to the Dudley centre, which is a little off the beaten track.
901 Secondly, the range of classes available in the area will not be reduced. The full range of classes run at Dudley—16 in all—is also run at Wolverhampton or Birmingham, with two exceptions.
One of the exceptions—plastering—will be run at Redditch. The other-repair and maintenance of contractors plant—is run at the Castle Bromwich centre. We know that a lot of people from Dudley already travel to Birmingham, Wolverhampton and also Castle Bromwich in order to get the training of their choice. As I have already said, there is spare capacity there to take more people from Dudley, and also sponsored training that has gone to Dudley.
As a result of my hon. Friend's convincing representation, the MSC has decided to keep classes in bricklaying, carpentry and joinery, and plumbing going in a separate building in Dudley so as not to reduce the availability of construction training in that area. That point should greatly assist my hon. Friend and his constituents, for these are popular trades with the longest waiting lists.
My hon. Friend has pointed out that there is the possibility of redundancies at the Round Oak steel works and that this is likely to increase the demand for skill-centre places in Dudley. I hope that what I have said illustrates that there are plenty of empty places fairly easily accessible to help those who may be made redundant.
I give the pledge that if, in practice, it became clear that demand was greater than could be met by the other West Midlands skillcentres, I would ask the MSC to re-examine the timetable for closing Dudley, which, in any case, is a fairly extended one, and consider whether it had the resources to keep some part of the centre open a little longer to meet the extra demand.
My hon. Friend is concerned how the staff and trainees at Dudley could be dealt with. I am assured that the phasing of the closure will enable relocation to take place smoothly and, wherever possible, in accordance with the wishes of everyone concerned.
Finally, my hon. Friend has said he is concerned about the alternative use to which the Dudley centre might be put, 902 and the Manpower Services Commission's obligations in this matter. The MSC rents the building for nearly £250,000 per annum, on a 30-year lease which has 17 years still to run. I am in no position to challenge my hon. Friend's figures on the current value of the building, but I understand that it can easily be converted for manufacturing use and that the basic premises and facilities are suitable for factory use. Clearly the Manpower Services Commission would have to meet its contractual obligations in terminating the lease, but I do not believe that the Pensnett trading estate is left with an expensive white elephant.
The machinery and equipment in the centre, which is valued at about £500,000 belongs to the MSC. Some of it will be used in Redditch. The rest will go to other skillcentres as need arises, which it constantly does. The re-use of this machinery and equipment is a useful saving for the MSC.
I believe, on balance, in spite of the persuasive case of my hon. Friend, that the MSC has made the right decisions on Dudley and Redditch, and is going about matching skillcentre provision to the needs of the area, and ensuring access to it for potential trainees, in a sensible manner. There may in the past have been what, with hindsight, we can see to be mistakes, but we should not let these prevent the present attempts to arrive at a sensible cost-effective and well-located network of skillcentres.
I appreciate by hon. Friend's legitimate arguments, but I believe that his constituents will still be left in a happy position in terms of range and availability of skillcentre provision. This debate has been useful in airing facts and views. I hope that it has contributed to a better understanding of the reason for the MSC's decisions.
My hon. Friend has drawn to our attention one or two new points that I believe have not previously been put to the commission and I shall ensure that they are passed on. But the final decisions on closures and on the timing of closures must rest with the commission.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Adjourned accordingly at twenty-four minutes past Twelve o'clock.