HC Deb 15 May 1980 vol 984 cc1761-824

As amended (in the Standing Committee), considered.

4.1 pm

Mr. A. J. Beith (Berwick-upon-Tweed)

Before we consider the new clauses on the Notice Paper, will the House be given an explanation of what happened to new clause 1, which appeared in your selection, Mr. Speaker—

Mr. Speaker

Order. We cannot pursue that now. It just disappeared. We can deal only with what is on the Notice Paper. We cannot have an argument now about the disappearance of a clause. There will be an opportunity when we discuss new clause 6—

Mr. Beith rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am surprised at the hon. Gentleman. When we discuss new clause 6, there will be an opportunity for reference to be made to the disappearance of new clause 1. We must discuss the business that is on the Notice Paper. There is no point of order for me to rule on.

Mr. Stanley Orme (Salford, West)

On a further point of order, Mr. Speaker. When I entered the House this morning, I obtained a copy of the selection list. It appeared that new clause 1 had been selected by yourself, Mr. Speaker. When I read the Notice Paper, it appeared that new clause 1 had been removed. Later in the day, Mr. Speaker, you issued a new selection list. I think that we are entitled to ask you what happened in the meantime.

A large number of amendments were selected that were linked to new clause 1. Those amendments and other new clauses have fallen because the Government have removed new clause 1. I feel that the House is entitled to a statement on new clause 6 on the lines of the one that was leaked to the press last night. It seems that the Government do not have the courage to make that statement to the House.

Mr. Speaker

I issued a provisional selection last night when new clause 1 was on the Notice Paper. When I saw this morning that the new clause was not on the Notice Paper, I had to issue another provisional selection list. I could not select new clause 1, as it was not on the Notice Paper. Therefore, I have selected new clause 2. It was straightforward. I deal with the Notice Paper as it is produced. The Notice Paper yesterday was different from today's Notice Paper.

Mr. Orme

I accept, Mr. Speaker, that you were put in an obvious difficulty. When you saw today's Notice Paper you had to make a fresh selection. However, this is not a technicality. This involves a major piece of Government policy. I realise that you are not responsible for that, Mr. Speaker, but the Secretary of State for Social Services has dealt with the House in a cavalier manner that is outrageous. It is not sufficient for the Minister of State to deal with the matter when we come to new clause 6. We shall not co-operate on that basis.

Mr. Beith

I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will be sympathetic to hon. Members who find themselves in genuine difficulty. I presume that yesterday's printing arrangements were affected by outside events. The printing of amendments yesterday was not quite perfect. We had reason to wonder whether we had a complete set of amendments in front of us. The marshalled list of amendments today did not contain new clause 1 and the provisional selection list which you had issued did. I do not think that you should be surprised that many of us thought that new clause 1 was still before us, or that the Government still intended to move it. When I rose at the beginning of these proceedings, all that I was seeking was a simple one-phrase indication from the Government that it was not their intention to move the new clause and that its disappearance was no accident but their deliberate intention.

Mr. Speaker

I think that I owe the hon. Gentleman an apology for the volume with which I responded to him earlier. The hon. Gentleman was on his feet at the same time as myself and I thought that I would let him hear the message that I was trying to convey.

Mr. William Hamilton (Fife, Central) rose—

Mr. Speaker

Secondly, I have no doubt that hon. Members will wish to comment on the disappearance of the new clause. This is not the time to do that. No doubt the opportunity will come and they will be able to do so.

Mr. Hamilton

Are you telling the House, Mr. Speaker, that in the debate on new clause 6, we shall be able to range much more widely as a consequence of the Government's removal of new clause 1? If so, I think that the House will be satisfied. New clause 6 refers to charges. If the debate is to be enlarged and we are able to refer to charges other than those specified in new clause 6, that will meet the requirements of the House.

Mr. Speaker

I do not want to commit myself. I indicated that there could be side references. The new clause deals with charges and the partially-sighted. New clause 1 dealt with something very similar. It will be better to consider the scope of the debate when we come to it.

Mr. Hamilton

New clause 1, which has been withdrawn, included a schedule referring to dental charges. As I understand it, the schedule will fall. Therefore, we shall not have an opportunity to cross-examine the Government on why the charges are being dropped, although we are glad that they are. We should like an explanation from the Government of why they are being dropped and whether they intend to reintroduce them at a later stage.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Gentleman has helped me a great deal. If new clause 1 was as wide as he says, it is clear that it will not be covered by new clause 6. We cannot have a debate on dental charges when new clause 6 is before the House. We must keep within the rules of order, although I know that hon. Members want to make their observations. They will have to find some other way of doing so.

Mr. Orme

Futher to the point of order raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Fife, Central (Mr. Hamilton), Mr. Speaker. We are put in a serious dilemma because new clause 1 referred to dental charges as well as sight testing. We understand from the Government's leak that they will drop the sight-testing charges but will return on some future date to dental charges. The way in which the Government are operating is denying the Opposition a fair chance to debate the issue.

As you rightly say, Mr. Speaker, new clause 6 deals with the partially-sighted. You could, Mr. Speaker, stretch a point to allow us to bring in sight testing for the non-disabled. However, I agree that to bring in dental charges would not be in order while discussing new clause 6. The Leader of the House and the Secretary of State are in the Chamber, and we are entitled to a statement from the Government that will clarify their policy. They should not treat the House in this cavalier manner.

  1. New Clause 2
      2. cc1764-5
    1. CORRECTION OF MEANING OF " LOCAL AUTHORITY " IN PART IV OF THE NATIONAL ASSISTANCE ACT 1948 317 words
  2. New Clause 6
      3. cc1765-811
    1. AMENDMENT OF NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE (SCOTLAND) ACT 1978 17,168 words, 1 division
  3. New Clause 8
      4. cc1811-24
    1. NURSING HOMES LEVY 5,413 words, 1 division
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