MINOR AND CONSEQUENTIAL AMENDMENTS RELATING TO PUBLIC SERVICE VEHICLES (Hansard, 25 March 1980)

§ Mr. Iain Mills
I beg to move amendment No. 70, in page 56, line 24, leave out paragraph 6 and insert— '6.—(1) Section 146 (regulations of conduct of drivers and conductors) and section 147 (regulations of conduct of passengers) shall apply in relation to inspectors as they apply in relation to conductors. 1359 (2) In sub-paragraph (1) "inspector", in relation to a public service vehicle, means a person authorised to act as such by the holder of the PSV operator's licence under which the vehicle is being used. (3) In section 14'7(1)(d) the words "or other person authorised by the licensee of the vehicle" shall be omitted.'.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this it will be convenient to take amendment No. 90, in schedule 9, page 68, line 46, column 3, at end insert— 'In section 147(1)(d) the words "or other person authorised by the licensee of the vehicle".'.

§ Mr. Mills
In moving this amendment I promise that I will take no longer than is necessary for the House to appreciate its importance. The amendment makes only small changes to two sections of the Road Traffic Act 1960 but these changes, I can assure right hon. and hon. Members opposite, are of real consequence to bus operators and their staff. Recent events have highlighted the difficulties and dangers the public transport staff face in dealing with some sections of the travelling public. [Interruption.] It is important. I must tell right hon. and hon. Gentlemen opposite that this is not a laughing matter. If hon. Members were driving the buses they might well appreciate the situation and pay a little more attention to these points. I can assure hon. Members that my speech will last as long as their interjections.
The dangers that the public transport staff face in dealing with some sections of the travelling public are real, and it is important that those public servants should be backed by sufficient and unambiguous authority. Bus drivers and conductors are given a range of powers under the regulations mentioned in sections 146 and 147—[Interruption.]

Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. It is convenient if the Chair at least can hear what is going on.

§ Mr. Mills
I can assure right hon. and hon. Members that bus drivers will not appreciate the sort of concern that they are showing. I say again that my speech will take as long as hon. Members' interjections.
Bus drivers and conductors are given a range of powers under the regulations mentioned in sections 146 and 147 of the 1960 Act.
I should like to express here my gratitude to the right hon. Gentleman who 1360 leads for the Opposition on these matters for bringing to my attention the slight confusion over the application of sections 146 and 147. Section 146 empowers the Minister to make regulations providing for the conduct of drivers and conductors and section 147 empowers the Minister to make regulations providing for the conduct of passengers, and then goes on to other matters.
By amendment No. 90 it is intended to delete the words or other person authorised by the licensee of the vehicle in section 174. Bus drivers and conductors have a range of powers under the Vehicles (Conduct of Drivers, Conductors and Passengers) Regulations 1936, as amended in 1946 and 1975. The powers include the right to check passengers' tickets, demand fares, take names and addresses of passengers who may be committing an offence, and so on.
Unfortunately, under present regulations it is not clear—this is the crux of the matter—whether inspectors are also covered. As inspectors are having increasing contact with passengers, and one-man buses become more usual, because of this lack of clarity—

Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. There still seems to be a slight background of noise.

§ Mr. Mills
For the third time—I am determined to continue. We should proceed far more quickly if hon. and right hon. Members could hear me. I am delighted to detain the House because, as a new Member, I have heard right hon. and hon. Members making long speeches. They are being most discourteous.
Inspectors are having increased contact with passengers on one-man operated buses, and we must therefore make unambiguous the regulations governing their powers. The amendment ensures that in future the regulations will apply to inspectors as they apply to conductors and drivers. I sincerely beg the House to support the amendment.

§ Mr. Kenneth Clarke
I am grateful to my hon. Friend for raising the matter. He is quite right; there is genuine doubt under the present law whether the powers extend to inspectors. With more one-man operation the more likely it is that inspectors will have contact with the public and need these powers. I commend the 1361 amendment to the House.