HC Deb 30 June 1980 vol 987 cc1222-39
30 (b) the Authority may exercise any of its powers under that section in relation to aerodromes or persons outside Great Britain through a body corporate in which it has a direct or indirect financial interest; and accordingly references in subsection (2)(b) above to the Authority include references to any such body.
(4) Any consent under this section may be given subject to such conditions as the Secretary of State thinks fit.
(5) References in the Airports Authority Act 1975 to aerodromes owned or managed by the Authority shall not apply to aerodromes outside Great Britain.'.—[Mr. Tebbit.]

Brought up and read the First time.

Mr. Tebbit

I beg to move, That the clause be read a Second time.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

With this it will be convenient to consider the following amendments to the proposed new clause.

(a), in line 10, leave out subsection (2).

(c), leave out line 13.

(d), in line 15, after 'liability', insert 'in excess of limits which shall be prescribed by order made by statutory instrument'.

(e), in line 16, at end insert— '(c) the statutory instrument referred to in paraghaph (b) of this subsection shall prescribe limits in respect of capital expenditure and the guaranteeing of liability respectively by the Authority which shall be consistent with the Authority's commercial requirements; and such statutory instrument shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament; (d) The Secretary of State shall at least annually, and more frequently if necessary, review the limits referred to in paragraph (c) of this subsection and if he deems this to be necessary he may vary the same by order made by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment as aforesaid.'.

(b), in line 31, leave out subsection (4).

Mr. Tebbit

The clause gives the British Airports Authority greater powers to engage in work overseas. It clarifies its existing powers to operate overseas in certain other respects. The authority's primary function is, of course, to run airports in Great Britain and what is now proposed will in no way prejudice this duty.

It is the Government's policy that nationalised industries generally should support export efforts in their specialised fields. The authority already has power to provide technical advice or assistance to any person, which enabled it to act as a consultant in the export market. However, it is generally believed that the authority's considerable world-wide reputation in the planning, development and operation of airports could be developed more effectively in a way that would sup- port United Kingdom private sector firms if the authority had somewhat wider powers. It has often been suggested that overseas demand over the next five years could amount to contracts worth as much as £3,000 million for the construction of new airports.

First, therefore, it is proposed in subsection (1)(a) that the authority should be able to provide any aerodrome outside Great Britain or to assume the management of any already established aerodrome. With respect to the provision of an aerodrome, it is common practice, when major airport development projects arise, for consortia to be formed which bring together all the necessary skills. The authority may already provide these consortia with technical advice and assistance but it may not, at present, join them as a full member. The sums of money involved in airport projects are often very large and the developments usually have a high prestige value.

As a result clients—invariably Governments or public authorities—often look for some sign of Government backing of consortia bidding for their contracts. The BAA as a nationalised industry is not, of course, part of Government but it is considered that its involvement as a main contract signatory would provide clients with a sufficient indication of official support. This could make the difference between losing and winning extremely valuable contracts, and this is one of the reasons that the new power is proposed.

With respect to the authority assuming the management of an aerodrome outside Great Britain, subsection (1)(a) will enable the authority to pursue alone or with other bodies development contracts in countries which do not have the experienced manpower resources to run major airports. This kind of support can sometimes be made available under the authority's existing powers to provide advice and assistance, but as a result of this amendment a United Kingdom consortium will now be able to offer package deals including all stages of planning, design, construction, the provision of equipment and the management of airports once completed.

I turn now to subsection (1)(b). This will enable the authority to provide services which are necessary or desirable for the operation of airports overseas. The authority's existing powers do not permit it to do this. Here again I cite the importance of the authority being able to join consortia as a full member and the need to allow our nationalised industries profitably to market their specialised capabilities.

In general I should like to add that the authority will not undertake major airport construction or the provision of equipment itself. Rather it will normally make its skills and experience available within consortia. Where clients require a particularly high level of official commitment, the authority may, through a wholly owned subsidiary, act as a main contractor, sub-contracting specific tasks as appropriate. However, such cases are likely to be rare; normally the authority will act as a co-signatory to the main contract. It will also be possible for the authority to use its new powers to manage airports and to compete for contracts confined to that function.

The operation by the authority of its new powers will be subject to the consent of the Secretary of State. The authority may occasionally wish to sign small contracts and, in order to ensure that the authority can react quickly to these commercial opportunities, in addition to any specific consents which may be given a general consent will be given by the Secretary of State to permit the authority to take on contracts up to agreed amounts without specific reference to the Secretary of State.

The amounts concerned have been agreed with the authority, but the precise legal form of consent has still to be finalised. There will be a number of safeguards. It is our intention that the authority should report annually to the Secretary of State giving an account and the overall results of its overseas activities. A summary of this report should be published by the authority as part of its annual report and accounts and an overall limit should be set to the unsecured financial liabilities which the authority may assume in exercising its new powers.

Mr. Onslow

I understand that the limits involve formal guidelines. Do the Government intend to put a copy of the guidelines in the Library or to make them available to the House in some other convenient way?

Mr. Tebbit

Yes. I should have liked to make the guidelines available to the House by putting them in the Library this evening. However, the final difficulty of tidying up has to be resolved. We found that the expression "guidelines" does not accord with legislation, which refers to "consent". Such legal matters cause difficulties. I prefer not to put anything in the Library until everything has been firmly and properly tied up.

The Government have been guided by the recommendations of the Overseas Projects Board, which felt that the extension of the authority's powers would strengthen the United Kingdom's export capability in the airports sector. The view of the trade organisations with a major interest in airports—the Export Group for the Constructional Industries, the Society of British Aerospace Companies Limited and the British Consultants Bureau—have been sought. It is clear that there is a general view in industry that the measures are desirable.

There is a strong feeling that the authority should not use its new powers to impinge upon the interests of the private sector. I stress that the intention is that the authority will seek to arrange its overseas business under the new powers to increase the amount of such work obtained by firms in the private sector by more than would be the case without the authority's participation. The clause will enable the authority to act in support of the private sector so as to increase the share of important export projects that might go to British firms.

The hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Davis) thought of introducing a similar clause in past legislation. With the then Government's precarious majority, the Minister was not willing to introduce a clause which might be controversial. At that time my right hon. Friends and I were not able to give a positive assurance that we could give such a clause a fair wind. We have considered the matter carefully and we have decided that it is right, with the safeguards that I have mentioned, to proceed in this way. That marks a non-doctrinal attitude by the Government.

Mr. Clinton Davis

The House will be grateful to the Minister for spelling out the purpose of the new clause. He acknowledges that our intention was to introduce a similar provision in 1978. He acknowledges that the Opposition thought that such a clause could be controversial and did not want it to be introduced. We were considering a non-contentious Bill and the Government felt obliged not to proceed with it.

Mr. Tebbit

The problem was that curiously, as on this occasion, the proposal came up rather late and left us with too little time to consult the relevant interests before making a decision.

Mr. Davis

That is a fair point. There was also a feeling that the public sector was acquiring an excessive amount of power. However, that is history.

In broad terms, we welcome the new clause. It recognises the prize that is to be won in exports by the British Airports Authority. The figure of £3,500 million over the next five years is one which makes the clause obviously necessary.

10.30 pm

The Minister has also recognised the enterprise and ability of the BAA, which is an outstandingly good example of public ownership, and its enterprise in being able to enter into consortia and win prizes such as those that he and I have described. The BAA entered into a venture with a company in which British Airways has the entirety of voting shares—it is called IAL—as long ago as 1977. That joint venture was called British Airports International Limited. It is designed to maximise the airport consultancy capability to which the Minister referred. BAL has been doing well. It operates completely commercially and it has vast potential.

Our complaint about the provisions that the Minister has introduced is that they are subject to constraints that I do not believe are imposed elsewhere. The Minister will correct me if I am wrong. A number of other nationalised enterprises operate overseas consultancy services—British Rail, the National Coal Board, IAL, to which I referred, and British Steel. As far as I know, there are no similar limitations to those set out in subsection (2) of the new clause affecting the enterprises of those concerns.

In the Airports Authority Act 1975, section 3(2) states The Authority, in framing and carrying out proposals involving substantial outlay on capital account, shall act on lines settled from time to time with the approval of the Secretary of State. Why was it not possible simply to invoke that subsection in this case? The new clause provides that the Minister shall establish some guideline, general consent, guidance or whatever he will call it. Does that have the force of law? Will it satisfy a customer? Does it carry any weight in law?

Mr. Tebbit

The clause that we are discussing is what carries weight in law. The consent that will be given to the authority is merely framed as guidelines in essence, and sets out the amounts up to which the authority may engage in contracts without reference to the Secretary of State. After reference to the Secretary of State, the consent for a particular contract can be enlarged.

Mr. Davis

It would have been far better and far clearer if the Minister had chosen to embark on this matter along the lines we have suggested in our amendments. The Minister has, perfectly properly, not dealt with the amendments in advance of their being moved. Initially we thought that it would be better to leave out the necessity for all consent, and then on reflection we felt that amendments (c), (d) and (e) were preferable. These would require the Secretary of State to prescribe limits within which the BAA, acting jointly or separately, might operate without such consents as are prescribed. That would require some degree of parliamentary accountability. In the circumstances, it is not unreasonable that Parliament should see what the limits are. I am prepared to invite my hon. Friends not to divide on the issue if the Under-Secretary can satisfy us that the protections that we have introduced in our amendments are the wrong route to follow.

We are deeply concerned that, as drawn, the subsection would appear to provide—if the Minister had not intervened—that the authority could not exercise any powers or engage in any expenses without the authority of the Minister. That would be a thoroughly impossible position for it to act under, bearing in mind the urgency of dealing with a number of the contracts. That is why we tabled the amendments. It might be better if I sat down and gave the Minister an opportunity to respond. I hope that he will be able to respond favourably.

Mr. McCrindle

Before the Minister replies, I should like to support the new clause. It relates to extending the powers of the British Airports Authority, especially in future overseas activities. I heartily approve of that extension. I approve of any move to encourage the BAA towards a greater degree of commercialism. So far, so good. But there are two points to which I wish to draw my hon. Friend's attention. I give an advance warning that I am looking beyond this new clause to the way airports are organised in future.

The Minister said that the new clause allows the BAA to move into areas overseas in support of the private sector. He will not need me to remind him that we are discussing a Bill that introduces an element of private capital into British Airways. I wonder whether, like me, he feels that that leads him to question whether there is a case either for introducing an element of private capital into the BAA at some time in the not too distant future, or even for demerging the BAA altogether. The authors of a recent report looked to the time when a demerging of the BAA might take place, and when private companies might be floated under the names of Heathrow Limited or Gatwick Limited. That may seem a flight of fancy to some hon. Members—I do not expect my hon. Friend to reply to that point in detail—but the House would have to agree that, properly run, Heathdow and Gatwick could become extremely profitable enterprises.

I hope that by agreeing to the new clause, extending as we should the power and authority of the BAA to engage in overseas enterprises, we shall not close the door to the possible future flotation of companies to run our principal airports. That would have the effect of moving the BAA out of the public sector borrowing requirement, which must appeal to my hon. Friend and other Ministers. There is no inherent reason why our principal airports should be in public ownership. The possibility of moving them out of public ownership should be attractive to the Government. That would not necessarily mean that we would open our leading airports only to private capital involvement. Local authorities could bid for some of the airports presently under the control of the BAA. I do not need to remind the House that there are some municipal airports which are extremely well run and extremely profitable. Luton, Manchester and Southend are examples of ways in which the local authorities may choose to bid.

Before any of that can happen, we shall have to move towards introducing an element of demerging the BAA. If that were to be the case, I would respectfully suggest that a much greater involvement by British Airways in Heathrow Limited and of British Caledonian in Gatwick Limited might lead to the running of those airports being more inclined to take into account the feelings of the principal users, in the shape of the airlines.

Mr. Alan Clark (Plymouth, Sutton)

Does my hon. Friend think that the changes he is suggesting would lead to the airports being better policed?

Mr. McCrindle

I should have thought that it would be up to Heathrow Limited and Gatwick Limited to make their own security arrangements. If there were to be public pressure for a greater degree of policing—I think that that is what my hon. Friend is implying—they would be more likely to be receptive than the British Airports Authority would be.

I am happy to see the British Airports Authority expertise developed abroad. I am happy at the prospect of British Airports Authority profitability being improved. But I hope the Minister will at the very least reassure me that by agreeing to the new clause we shall not eliminate another solution later to the airports problem along the lines that I have suggested tonight.

Mr. Onslow

Since what my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle) has just said was apparently in order, Mr. Deputy Speaker, may I say that it gives me considerable pleasure to agree with him? It is about time we had another look at the financial structure of the British Airports Authority and considered enabling it to go to different places for its finance.

The right hon. Member for Lanarkshire, North (Mr. Smith), who is getting short tempered, will surely know how much general anger there is about the way in which at the moment the British Airports Authority is obliged to fund the building of new airports by charging existing passengers. I am sure that the House, and I believe the Minister, would welcome a great deal of change in this area which would make it possible to raise capital in a more proper way rather than loading it on revenue.

I was grateful to my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary for what he said about the consultations or discussions which had taken place with the British Consultants Bureau and others. I know that they welcome the exchange of views that they have been able to have with his officials, and which are reflected in the latest draft of what I would call the guidelines, because I do not know what else to call them.

I have in particular been advised by one person who has taken part in some of those discussions that the British Consultants Bureau is happier with the wording which now applies to the object of the extended powers, which is to gain an improvement in the total facilities which consultants, contractors and suppliers in the private and public sectors together are able to offer for overseas project work.

It is that collaboration which should be emphasised, and I hope that the Minister will stress that there is no intention here of giving the British Airports Authority an open, general licence to divert its energies from its priority task, which is to make a good job of running airports in this country by engaging in ambitious foreign ventures which are a diversion of its resources and its attention.

The Minister should be able to assure us that when he comes to consider an application for exemption from the limits set out he will consult not merely the British Airports Authority but others who might be affected—the consultants, contractors, suppliers and so on—if the exemption were granted. I should like to have his assurance that that is not ruled out.

It is slightly unusual to see in legislation the words It is hereby declared that which appear in subsection (3). I have a suspicion that those words are generally used in order to legitimise something that has been of very suspect legitimacy hitherto. I believe that in this case the purpose of the words is to legitimise the activities of British Airports International, for which there may be a somewhat doubtful foundation in law as it stands at the moment. I am all in favour of legitimising even the offspring of nationalised industries, but I should like to be certain that the motives for so doing are as legitimate as the organisation itself.

My hon. Friend will know that there is more than one view about the activity of British Airports International. The hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Davis) praised it for its being competitive in its marketing activities. I believe that some consultants who are active in this field regard it as aggressive and think that some of the methods that it uses are not wholly fair, particularly in the way in which it has been thought to suggest that it has some special cachet which is denied to private consultants.

It is true that British Airports International draws on staff whose primary function is to do other work. Neither IAL nor the BAA, presumably, employs staff in order to be constantly available for consultancy work overseas. So, to an extent, if they find themselves engaged in that, they do not have a total commitment to it nor necessarily total experience in the field concerned.

So long as the Minister can tell us that he sees British Airports International as having a supporting role and not a role to try to beat competition from the private sector as its primary objective, I can go along with what is sought in the subsection. But if it is to divert the efforts of people whose primary functions are to serve the airport industry in this country into overseas endeavours, I am less than happy that the amendment should be passed.

10.45 pm
Mr. Tebbit

First, I say to my hon. Friend the Member for Brentwood and Ongar (Mr. McCrindle) that this clause would not preclude any introduction of private sector finance to the BAA, although finding a way in which that could be conveniently done bristles with problems.

To my hon. Friend the Member for Woking (Mr. Onslow) I say that this is not an open general licence. It has specifically been drawn to avoid that. Its purpose is not to enlarge the activities of the BAA overseas. It is not to compete with the private sector, to undermine it, or anything other than to support the activities of what one would broadly call Great Britain Limited in securing more of this type of contract. There is no doubt that in many parts of the world it is an advantage to the British industry if this particular part of the public sector is able to go in as a full partner. That is what we intend to do.

Of course, it is possible to lose money just as well as to make money in these activities. One can lose a great deal of money particularly if one is a member of a consortium in which the possible liabilities are to be held on a joint and several basis, and being a public sector animal one is the only member of the consortium that cannot go into liquidation if things get really nasty. Therefore, it is entirely appropriate that the Secretary of State should have some degree of control over the extent to which liabilities could arise from which the authority would be unable to escape through the medium of going into liquidation whilst others could escape from them.

My hon. Friend is also right in what he says about subsection (3)(a). Its purpose is to place beyond doubt the existing power to provide advice or assistance overseas. At present this rests on section 2(5) of the Airports Authority Act 1975, which allows the advice or assistance to be provided to "any person", the latter words being taken to include any persons overseas. This is just a provision to remove doubt.

I should like to deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Davis). I detect that the House would not want me to deal with it at great length at this time of night. The reason why I would not recommend the House to accept his amendments is that in general they would remove any effective control by the Secretary of State in these areas. Perhaps it would help the hon. Gentleman if I said that what we had in mind was that there should be immediately consent on a general basis for the authority to assume the management of any overseas aerodrome in cases in which the scope of the services to be provided is such that the management fees payable to the authority do not exceed £1 million a year or £3 million over the duration of the contract.

A specific consent would be required for any new contract which will cause the total management fees payable to the authority to exceed £5 million at any time. It is proposed to give consent for the authority to provide services and facilities in connection with the operation of overseas aerodromes so long as the total unsecured liabilities of the authority under any one contract do not exceed £5 million. A specific consent would be required for any contract which would cause the total amount of the authority's unsecured liabilities under such contracts to exceed £15 million.

The consents will not authorise capital expenditure or the giving of guarantees or the provision by the authority of funds to any person or body other than for day-to-day provision of the services in question. Anything of that kind would require a specific consent.

In general, the requirements would be for the authority to seek to earn a reasonable rate of return on any of the activities; to secure so far as possible any liabilities likely to be incurred; to notify the Secretary of State should the total unsecured liabilities on overseas activities seem likely to exceed £100 million, which would be the overall limit for activities of this kind; to provide these services only through British Airports International Limited, or some other company established or acquired for the purpose, in which the authority owns not less than 50 per cent. of the ordinary share capital; to make an annual report on the activities and publish a summary of that in the authority's annual report, to be laid before Parliament; to keep the Secretary of State informed generally of developments in the field during the year; and to notify the Secretary of State if any contract seems likely to result in a loss.

That is an outline of the main conditions and the full conditions will be set out in the formal document giving the Secretary of State's consent. I should say that all parties, including the British Airports Authority, seem to be quite happy that this will give the required powers within the overall legislation for it to act effectively in this field.

Mr. Clinton Davis

We believe that the constraints that are imposed are unrea-

sonable in the circumstances. The Minister has not dealt with subsection (2)(a). We shall therefore press our amendment to a Division.

Question put and agreed to.

Clause read a Second time.

Amendment (c) proposed to the proposed clause, leave out line 13.—[Mr. John Smith.]

Question put, That the Amendment be made to the proposed clause:—

The House divided: Ayes 232, Noes 296.

Division No. 380] AYES [10.52 pm
Abse, Leo Eadie, Alex Lewis, Ron (Carlisle)
Adams, Allen Eastham, Ken Litherland, Robert
Allaun, Frank Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) Lofthouse, Geoffrey
Anderson, Donald English, Michael Lyon, Alexander (York)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Ennals, Rt Hon David Lyons, Edward (Bradford West)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest Evans, loan (Aberdare) McCartney, Hugh
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Evans, John (Newton) McDonald, Dr Oonagh
Ashton, Joe Ewing, Harry McElhone, Frank
Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) Faulds, Andrew McKay, Allen (Penistone)
Bagier, Gordon A. T. Field, Frank McKelvey, William
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Fitch, Alan MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) Flannery, Martin Maclennan, Robert
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) McNally, Thomas
Bidwell, Sydney Foot, Rt Hon Michael McWilliam, John
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Ford, Ben Magee, Bryan
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Forrester, John Marks, Kenneth
Bradley, Tom Foster, Derek Marshall, David (Gl'sgow.Shettles'n)
Bray, Dr Jeremy Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Marshall, Jim (Leicester South)
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn)
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Garrett, John (Norwich S) Mason, Rt Hon Roy
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) George, Bruce Maxton, John
Buchan, Norman Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Maynard, Miss Joan
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Ginsburg, David Meacher, Michael
Campbell, Ian Gourlay, Harry Mellish, Rt Hon Robert
Campbell-Savours, Dale Graham, Ted Mikardo, Ian
Canavan, Dennis Grant, George (Morpeth) Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Cant, R. B. Grant, John (Islington C) Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby)
Carmichael, Neil Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itcnen)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe)
Cartwright, John Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Haynes, Frank Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon)
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Healey, Rt Hon Denis Moyle, Rt Hon Roland
Cohen, Stanley Heffer, Eric S. Newens, Stanley
Coleman, Donald Home Robertson, John Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Homewood, William Ogden, Eric
Conlan, Bernard Hooley, Frank O'Halloran, Michael
Cowans, Harry Horam, John O'Neill, Martin
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Crowther, J. S. Huckfield, Les Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Cryer, Bob Hudson Davies, Gwilym Ednyfed Palmer, Arthur
Cunliffe, Lawrence Hughes, Mark (Durham) Park, George
Cunningham, George (Islington S) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Parker, John
Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) Janner, Hon Greville Parry, Robert
Davidson, Arthur Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Pendry, Tom
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelll) John, Brynmor Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Johnson, James (Huli West) Prescott, John
Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central) Johnson, Walter (Derby South) Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda) Race, Reg
Deakins, Eric Jones, Barry (East Flint) Radice, Giles
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Jones, Dan (Burnley) Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)
Dempsey, James Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Richardson, Jo
Dewar, Donald Kerr, Russell Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Dixon, Donald Kilroy-Silk, Robert Roberts, Allan (Bootle)
Dobson, Frank Kinnock, Neil Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Dormand, Jack Lambie, David Robertson, George
Douglas, Dick Lamborn, Harry Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Lamond, James Rodgers, Rt Hon William
Dubs, Alfred Leadbitter, Ted Rooker, J. W.
Duffy, A. E. P. Leighton, Ronald Roper, John
Dunnett, Jack Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Lewis, Arthur (Newham North West) Rowlands, Ted
Ryman, John Straw, Jack White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)
Sandelson, Neville Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Sever, John Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West) Whitehead, Phillip
Shearman, Barry Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) Whitlock, William
Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop) Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East) Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Short, Mrs Renée Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen) Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) Thorne, Stan (Preston South) Winnick, David
Silverman, Julius Tilley, John Woodall, Alec
Skinner, Dennis Tinn, James Woolmer, Kenneth
Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire) Torney, Tom Wrigglesworth, Ian
Soley, Clive Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. Wright, Sheila
Spearing, Nigel Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley) Young, David (Bolton East)
Spriggs, Leslie Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)
Stallard, A. W. Walkins, David TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Stoddart, David Weetch, Ken Mr, James Hamiton and Mr. George Morton.
Stott, Roger Wellbeloved, James
Strang, Gavin Welsh, Michael
Adley, Robert Dickens, Geoffrey Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Aitken, Jonathan Dorrell, Stephen Howells, Geraint
Alexander, Richard Dover, Denshore Hunt, David (Wirral)
Ancram, Michael du Cann, Rt Hon Edward Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Arnold, Tom Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Aspinwall, Jack Durant, Tony Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Dykes, Hugh Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) Kaberry, Sir Donald
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Eggar, Timothy Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Emery, Peter Kimball, Marcus
Bell, Sir Ronald Eyre, Reginald Kitson, Sir Timothy
Bendall, Vivian Fairgrieve, Russell Knox, David
Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) Faith, Mrs Sheila Lamont, Norman
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Farr, John Lang, Ian
Berry, Hon Anthony Fell, Anthony Langford-Holt, Sir John
Best, Keith Fenner, Mrs Peggy Latham, Michael
Bevan, David Gilroy Finsberg, Geoffrey Lawrence, Ivan
Biffen, Rt Hon John Fisher, Sir Nigel Lawson, Nigel
Biggs-Davison, John Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) Lee, John
Blackburn, John Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Le Marchant, Spencer
Blaker, Peter Fookes, Miss Janet Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Body, Richard Forman, Nigel Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Boscawen, Hon Robert Fox, Marcus Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)
Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Bowden, Andrew Fraser, Peter (South Angus) Loveridge, John
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. Luce, Richard
Braine, Sir Bernard Gardiner, George (Reigate) Lyell, Nicholas
Bright, Graham Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) McCrindle, Robert
Brinton, Tim Garel-Jones, Tristan Macfarlane, Neil
Brittan, Leon Glyn, Dr Alan MacGregor, John
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Goodhart, Philip MacKay, John (Argyll)
Brooke, Hon Peter Goodhew, Victor Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham)
Brotherton, Michael Goodlad, Alastair McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Gorst, John McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Browne, John (Winchester) Gow, Ian McQuarrie, Albert
Bruce-Gardyne, John Gower, Sir Raymond Madel, David
Bryan, Sir Paul Gray, Hamish Major, John
Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick Greenway, Harry Marland, Paul
Buck, Antony Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) Marlow, Tony
Budgen, Nick Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Bulmer, Esmond Grist, Ian Marten, Neil (Banbury)
Burden, F. A. Grylls, Michael Mates, Michael
Butcher, John Gummer, John Selwyn Mather, Carol
Butler, Hon Adam Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) Maude, Rt Hon Angus
Cadbury, Jocelyn Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mawby, Ray
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hampson, Dr Keith Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Chaiker, Mrs Lynda Hannam, John Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Channon, Paul Haselhurst, Alan Mayhew, Patrick
Chapman, Sydney Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Mellor, David
Churchill, W. S. Hawksley, Warren Meyer, Sir Anthony
Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Hayhoe, Barney Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)
Clark, Sir William (Croydon South) Heddle, John Mills, Iain (Meriden)
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Henderson, Barry Mills, Peter (West Devon)
Clegg, Sir Walter Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Miscampbell, Norman
Cockeram, Eric Hicks, Robert Mitchell, David (Basingstoke)
Cormack, Patrick Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. Moate, Roger
Corrie, John Hill, James Monro, Hector
Costain, A. P. Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) Montgomery, Fergus
Cranborne, Viscount Holland, Philip (Carlton) Moore, John
Critchley, Julian Hooson, Tom Morgan, Geraint
Crouch, David Hordern, Peter Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth)
Dean, Paul (North Somerset) Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford) Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes)
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Thompson, Donald
Mudd, David Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Murphy, Christopher Rost, Peter Thornton, Malcolm
Myles, David Royle, Sir Anthony Townend, John (Bridlington)
Neale, Gerrard Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Needham, Richard St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman Trippier, David
Nelson, Anthony Scott, Nicholas Trotter, Neville
Neubert, Michael Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Newton, Tony Shelton, William (Streatham) Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Nott, Rt Hon John Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Viggers, Peter
Onslow, Cranley Shepherd, Richard(Aldridge-Bt'hills) Waddington, David
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally Shersby, Michael Wakeham, John
Page, Rt Hon Sir R. Graham Silvester, Fred Waldegrave, Hon William
Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire) Sims, Roger Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire)
Parkinson, Cecil Skeet, T. H. H. Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Parris, Matthew Speed, Keith Wall, Patrick
Patten, Christopher (Bath) Speller, Tony Waller, Gary
Patten, John (Oxford) Spence, John Walters, Dennis
Pattie, Geoffrey Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) Ward, John
Pawsey, James Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) Warren, Kenneth
Penhaligon, David Sproat, Iain Watson, John
Percival, Sir Ian Squire, Robin Wells, John (Maidstone)
Pollock, Alexander Stanbrook, Ivor Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage)
Porter, George Stanley, John Wheeler, John
Price, David (Eastleigh) Steen, Anthony Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Proctor, K. Harvey Stevens, Martin Whitney, Raymond
Raison, Timothy Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) Wickenden, Keith
Rathbone, Tim Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) Wiggin, Jerry
Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) Stokes, John Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Rees-Davies, W. R. Stradling Thomas, J. Winterton, Nicholas
Ronton, Tim Tapsell, Peter Wolfson, Mark
Rhodes James, Robert Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW) Young, Sir George (Acton)
Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Taylor, Teddy (Southend East)
Ridley, Hon Nicholas Tebbit, Norman TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Ridsdale, Julian Temple-Morris, Peter Lord James Douglas-Hamilton and Mr. John Cope.
Rifkind, Malcolm Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)

Question accordingly negatived.

Clause added to the Bill.

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