DUTY TO PUBLISH PARTICULARS OF STAGE CARRIAGE SERVICES IN TRIAL AREAS (Hansard, 25 June 1980)

§ Mr. Kenneth Clarke
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may discuss Lords amendments Nos. 12 to 14.

§ Mr. Clarke
These are purely drafting amendments.

§ Mr. Booth
I do not understand why the Minister should say that these are purely drafting amendments. It appears to me that amendments Nos. 11 to 14 delete the reference to stage carriage services other than the reference in the first line of clause 14.
660 If I understand the clause and amendments correctly, the effect is that, as the clause will bite only on stage carriage services, only those who operate stage carriage services in trial areas will be under any duty to notify the local authorities concerned. I know that the clause has other effects, but my understanding is that if the amendments are accepted no other services which are being run will be notified to the local authority. The local authority will not be notified when someone starts a service other than a stage carriage service in a trial area, and it will not be notified when a service other than a stage carriage service is terminated in that area. That would seem to be the effect of the clause if the amendments were carried.
If I am correct, I must pose certain questions. How will the local authorities obtain the information which they require to make their transport plans and policy? Is the county authority still under a duty to produce its transport plan and policy? How will it do so if it is not notified? Furthermore, if it is not notified, how will it make a sensible determination of its transport supplementary grant when it is unaware of any services operating in the area other than stage carriage services?
I am sure that the Parliamentary Secretary is keenly aware, as is the Minister of Transport, that transport supplementary grant is not confined solely to stage carriage services. One cannot construct an intelligent plan on which to determine which services to support by TSG unless one knows the relationship between stage carriage, express, rail services and other forms of public transport service in the area.
Therefore, I believe that this is more than simply a drafting matter. I should like the Minister to indicate whether there is something else in the Bill which places an obligation on those who run services other than stage carriage services to notify the public authority for the area whenever they start or terminate a service; or does the clause, given that the amendments are carried, mean that local authorities will not have that information, and will have no statutory right to be notified of information which appears to be highly relevant to two important functions which they are required to carry out?

§ Mr. Kenneth Clarke
I described the amendment as drafting because they do not change the meaning of the clause as it left this House. The right hon. Gentleman was entirely correct in his interpretation of the effect of the clause, as amended. But the effect of the clause is not changed. All that is happening is that we are taking out tautologous references to stage carriage, services because clause 14 begins by making it clear that it applies only to a stage carriage service which operates wholly within a trial area. It was in the simple hope that we could reduce the number of words and somewhat improve the language that it was proposed that all these superfluous references to "stage carriage" should be removed. Therefore, the clause always had the effect of which the right hon. Gentleman complains, and would continue to have that effect whether or not the amendments were accepted.
If the right hon. Gentleman casts his mind back to our debates in Committee, he will recall that the clause is primarily concerned with the problem which will face local authorities in trial areas, and which might face operators if people were suddenly able overnight to run new stage carriage services. There might even be the dangar of their going along other people's advertised routes, chasing passengers from stop to stop. For that reason, for stage carriage services, we introduced in clause 14 the requirement that there should be notice given to local authorities. It was never our proposal, and I do not recall it being canvassed earlier, that we should extend matters beyond that. I see no reason why the same strict duty of giving notice in detail should apply to express class and contract, and so on.
It is right that TSG and transport planning is not confined to stage carriage. I know of no local authority thinking of going in for revenue in respect of any holiday market in express class, contract or anything of that kind. They do not have that information at the moment. I believe that it is right that the kind of duties we are imposing on new operators in this area should be confined to stage carriage. That was proposed in this House, and all that their Lordships have done is to improve the provision.