Constitutional Development (Hansard, 12 June 1980)

§ 6. Mr. Latham
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he proposes to produce his detailed proposals for constitutional changes in the Province.

§ 8. Mr. Foulkes
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the progress of the talks considering devolution of power to Northern Ireland.

§ 14. Dr. Mawhinney
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the future constitutional arrangements for Northern Ireland.

§ 19. Mr. Biggs-Davison
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a further statement about constitutional development relating to the Province.

§ 20. Mr. Stanbrook
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the prospects of constitutional advance in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. Humphrey Atkins
The Government have made good progress in developing their proposals and they will be published shortly. They will be based on the principles set out in paragraphs 4 and 5 of the working paper (Cmnd. 7763) and, I hope, will be the subject of the widest possible discussion. I am confident that they will be seen as a constructive and even-handed approach to the question of how power is to be transferred to locally elected representatives in Northern Ireland. In the meantime, the present arrangements for the government of Northern Ireland must continue and an order extending the interim period of direct rule under the Northern Ireland Act 1974 is being laid today.

Several Hon. Members rose
——

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I propose to call first those hon. Members whose questions are being answered.

§ Mr. Latham
Does my right hon. Friend expect to be able to bring forward one Cabinet proposal for a Government of Ireland Bill that may or may not prove acceptable to the House? Or does he intend further alternative proposals and further public discussion? Is he aware that some of us feel that it is time for a decision?

§ Mr. Atkins
The proposals that we shall bring forward will be more narrowly focused than anything we have discussed before. There will be an opportunity for further discussions and I hope that will be taken by all parties.

§ Mr. Foulkes
Does not the Secretary of State appreciate that, since the Westminster representation from Northern Ireland will soon be on parity with the rest of the United Kingdom, there will be uproar in Scotland if he goes ahead with proposals for devolution of power for Northern Ireland but nothing is done for Scotland? As a member of the Cabinet, the right hon. Gentleman cannot escape responsibility. Will he initiate discussions with the Secretary of State for Scotland and the Leader of the House to make sure that these discussions continue in parallel?

§ Mr. Atkins
I note what the hon. Gentleman says. I have regular discussions with my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and all other Cabinet Ministers.

§ Dr. Mawhinney
Is my right hon. Friend aware that an increasing number of people, knowledgeable of the Province, both in this country and in Ireland, feel that the publication of a discussion paper at this time would not be helpful and that it would be better for the Government to continue with secret bilateral discussions and produce a White Paper in the autumn? Will my right hon. Friend reconsider his intentions of publishing a Green Paper this month?

§ Mr. Atkins
I note what my hon. Friend says. I hope he will find that the paper we publish will indicate clearly the direction in which the Government feel that it would be right to move. There remain some areas for discussion. I am sure it is right to continue talking with the parties to see whether we can get a high level of agreement on how to move forward.

§ Mr. Biggs-Davison
Since local government is central to giving the Northern Ireland people more control over their own affairs, is my right hon. Friend aware, from the Commissioner for Complaints, or anyone else, of widespread abuse of power by district councils? If he is, will he be ready to deal firmly with it?

§ Mr. Atkins
Yes, of course I shall. I cannot give the hon. Gentleman any precise details about the number of matters referred to the Commissioner for Complaints, or other bodies, in the past few months or year, although I know that there have been some. I can, of course, give him details, and I shall do so in writing.

§ Mr. Stanbrook
Are the Government simply to publish another discussion document, or is it their intention that, if the proposals they bring forward are accepted by a majority of the representatives of the people of Northern Ireland, they will be implemented?

§ Mr. Atkins
We shall publish the Government's proposals on the way that we think it is right to move forward. I hope that we can get a high level of agreement among the parties in Northern Ireland 785 about the right course. We shall then come to Parliament which, in the end, has the final say.

§ Mr. Fitt
Will the Secretary of State refute the reports in the press recently that the Government are prepared to reinstate a majority Unionist Government? Does he recognise that if the Government attempt to do that the scheme will be doomed? Does he accept that while there might be urgency over bringing about a devolved system of Government, any rushed attempt, at a half-baked arrangement which would be defeated, because of the procedures and time limits applicable in the House, would be a bitter pill and a disaster for Northern Ireland? Will the Secretary of State take whatever time is necessary to ensure that any plan put forward has some hope of success?

§ Mr. Atkins
I am sure that it is right to take whatever time is necessary to secure the agreement of the Northern Ireland people, to whom any arangements will apply. The hon. Gentleman should not believe everything that he reads in the newspapers. I advise him to wait for our paper.

§ Mr. James A. Dunn
Will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to consult the Northern Ireland population as well as the people who purport to represent the people's views? Is he aware that if he does not do that the potential for further disaster will be ever present? I wish the right hon. Gentleman's proposals well. May I express the hope that he will match his proposals with the common sense approach which I suggest?

§ Mr. Atkins
I agree that we should seek to ascertain the views of people throughout the Province. It would ill-become me to suggest that any hon. Member does not represent the people who elected him. Nevertheless, I take the point. That is why I said that I hope for the widest possible discussion.

§ Mr. Kilfedder
The Secretary of State said that the Green Paper will indicate the direction in which the Government hope to move. After so many months of discussion with the few parties with whom he decided to discuss the future constitution of Northern Ireland, and after being in office for 12 months, is not it high time that 786 the Government were able to make definite proposals for constitutional progress in Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. Atkins
We are anxious to make proposals which command general support. I have to tell the House that there is not total unanimity of view in Norhern Ireland about the way in which we should go.

§ Mr. Flannery
May I repeat the gist of the question posed by my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt)? Does the Secretary of State accept that, bearing in mind the communalist policies of Northern Ireland, if there is no power-sharing, and if all is left to the Ulster Unionists, Northern Ireland's position will remain as it is?

§ Mr. Atkins
I hope that the hon. Gentleman will study our paper with great care.

§ Mr. Porter
Is my right hon. Friend prepared to put the minds of some people at rest by indicating whether his proposals will be on a provincial basis through the reimposition of Stormont—which would be disastrous—or are likely to be on an English, Welsh or Scottish county council basis, which would give some hope for the future?

§ Mr. Atkins
I believe that our proposals will have close reference to the situation in Northern Ireland.

§ Mr. John
I hope that the Secretary of State is right in his last remark. When the paper is published will the House have reasonable time to study it before it is debated? Will the Secretary of State direct his attention to the editiorial in last Monday's Financial Times which makes it clear that the chances of a political initiative succeeding could be diminished while the economy is falling apart? Does he agree that too many people ignore the economic dimension of the constitution? I hope that the Secretary of State will not.

§ Mr. Atkins
I take the point. The economic life of Northern Ireland has a great bearing on everything that we seek to do. However, I quarrel with the hon. Member when he says that the economy is falling apart. It is not. I agree that Parliament must have an opportunity to debate the proposals. I shall talk to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House about that.