HC Deb 11 June 1980 vol 986 cc530-2
2. Mr. David Steel

asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on the current state of negotiation on Scottish teachers' pay.

Mr. Younger

Statutory responsibility for negotiating teachers' pay rests with the Scottish teachers salaries committee, and it is not for me to intervene. I understand that at a meeting on 4 June the teachers rejected an offer of 14 per cent. with effect from 1 April. The committee is to meet again tomorrow.

Mr. Steel

To what extent does the Secretary of State believe that his allocation of 13 per cent. in the rate support grant ties the hands of the negotiating committee? Will he allow it to go to arbitration and accept a higher figure? In the absence of a pay policy, how does he expect the teachers to accept 14 per cent. when the rate of inflation is 22 per cent. and the rate of wage settlements is 20 per cent?

Mr. Younger

The figure that the right hon. Gentleman quoted is not correct, and in any case the allowance made in the rate support grant order was greater than that, and it also took into account the allowances for the Clegg awards. With regard to the details of the negotiations, the last thing that anyone would want me to do would be to lay down how they should turn out. I have told the local authorities how much money is available to them, and it is up to them to negotiate.

Mr. John MacKay

Does my right hon. Friend realise that one way in which to prevent the post-Houghton decline that happened under the previous Labour Government is for the negotiators to agree to pay 18 per cent., but with effect from 1 July, and thus keep the total wage bill for the year at 14 per cent.?

Mr. Younger

I note what my hon. Friend has said about the progress of teachers' pay during the last few years. The second part of what he said is, of course, a matter for the negotiating committee.

Mr. Strang

The Secretary of State cannot escape his responsibilities here, Does he accept that there is no point in Governments appointing Clegg and Houghton commissions, and accepting their findings if, between times, teachers do not receive the going rate? Is he further aware that it is clear from Government statements on public sector salaries that, if teachers do not get a fair deal this year, they will find it very much more difficult to get one next year?

Mr. Younger

It depends upon what the hon. Gentleman means by the going rate, but the negotiating committee and the local authorities concerned must decide how much they can afford to pay.

Mr. Allan Stewart

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is a positive step forward that the management representatives have dropped their previous requirement on conditions of employment with respect to out-of-school hours which caused a great deal of irritation to the teaching profession?

Mr. Younger

I note what my hon. Friend says, but as I am not part of the negotiations that matter must be left for them.

Mr. Harry Ewing

Why does the Secretary of State continually try to deceive people into believing that he is not part of the negotiations? What instructions is he giving to his representatives on the management side of the STSC? Why does he not have the decency and courage to say that he does not want a settlement above 14 per cent., instead of hiding behind the charade of it not being his responsibility?

Mr. Younger

As the hon. Gentleman probably knows, there are two representatives from my side who attend the meetings, but they are in no sense able to dominate what goes on, nor do they seek to do so. As the hon. Gentleman must appreciate, the amount of money available for paying teachers is what the local authorities have available, taking account of what the rate support grant provides and what their own rate income provides. That is what is available, and they will decide what they can afford and wish to pay.

Mr. Ewing

What are the Secretary of State's representatives instructed to do at these negotiations?

Mr. Younger

Those representatives are present to represent the interests of my office, but they are in no sense part of the negotiations, except as two people among those present. The responsibility here is with the local authorities to decide what they wish to pay.