HC Deb 10 June 1980 vol 986 cc292-4
16. Mr. Sheerman

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science what evidence he has of difficulties currently being experienced by local authorities in financing the provision of books and equipment in schools.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

We are aware that difficulties exist. It was in recognition of the problem that the Government's expenditure plans made provision for increased expenditure per pupil in this area.

Mr. Sheerman

Is the Minister aware of widespread press reports of a situation in which children are having to hold raffles to decide who takes home the book for their homework? Is not this taking us back into the nineteenth century, in which there was one law for the charity pupil and another law for the better off?

Mr. Carlisle

Yes, I am aware of the report. For the sake of greater clarity, I have a copy with me. It is a statement made by the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) to which the hon. Gentleman refers, in which the hon. Member for Bedwellty is reported as saying : We are seeing a system … where children draw lots to use books and equipment ". I ask the hon. Member for Bedwellty now whether he will get up at the Dispatch Box and name the schools where children are drawing lots to use books and equipment, so that I can inquire, as I should do, into his allegations.

Mr. Kinnock rose

——

Sir John Eden

Whilst undoubtedly every sector of the service is capable of yielding economies, may I ask whether my right hon. and learned Friend agrees that cuts in the provision of school books should be the very last in the order of priorities of any well managed and proper thinking education authority?

Mr. Carlisle

I absolutely agree. That is why, in looking for savings—which, I repeat, are considerably less in proportion than the drop in the number of pupils in schools—we have consistently said that we believe that those savings should, whenever possible, be made in areas which do not affect the classroom.

Mr. Kinnock

From the information available to the right hon. and learned Gentleman, will he deny that children are using school books on rotas——

Mr. Budgen

Which schools?

Mr. Kinnock

That sharing is extensive and that the use of worksheets is universal? Does he deny that? Does he consider, since he has already acknowledged that there is an immense shortage of school books in schools, that he—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. I want to hear the question.

Mr. Kinnock

Does the right hon. and learned Gentleman agree that he is presiding over a situation in which local education authorities are being forced by these cuts to break sections 8 and 61 of the 1944 Act? What will he do about that? Or is he content with a "books-from-bingo" system and with dodging answers by making references to my speeches instead of dealing with his own responsibilities as Secretary of State for Education and Science?

Mr. Carlisle rose

——

Mr. Kinnock

When will the right hon. and learned Gentleman—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order. It is quite clear that I shall not be able to call anyone else for a supplementary question on this question. The hon. Member for Bed-wellty (Mr. Kinnock) is going on a long time.

Mr. Carlisle rose

——

Mr. Kinnock

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. There are millions of children in this country who are suffering from a shortage of books because of the actions of the right hon. and learned Gentleman.

Mr. Carlisle

Of course I am aware, as the hon. Gentleman has said, that there are probably many schools in this country in which books are from time to time shared, and I suspect that that has happened over many hundreds of years. What I am equally aware of is that, having specifically asked the hon. Gentleman to cite the schools at which he said, on Saturday, children draw lots to use books and equipment ", he specifically failed to do so. The House must draw its own conclusion—that the hon. Gentleman is prepared to make any statement outside the House without regard to the facts. In future, those who read these things in newspapers would be wise not to believe a word that he says.

I also say to the hon. Gentleman that, having listened to his remarks today, the House might be forgiven for not realising that the present Government—dealing with books, materials and equipment in schools for the current year, 1980–81—are providing for an increase both on that which was spent in the last year of the Labour Government—in 1978–79—in real terms and indeed, on that which was intended to be provided by the previous Government, in real terms, which had, in fact, remained constant during the period of the Labour Government. If the hon. Gentleman is saying that there are shortages of books and equipment in schools, in view of the record of his party when in office that is hypocrisy and humbug.