§ Mr. Clinton DavisI beg to move amendment No. 8, in page 5, line 26, leave out " the Cinematograph Films Council " and insert
such bodies, including the Cinematograph Films Council, as he deems fit ".As I said in advancing the argument for amendment No. 4, which encompassed this issue as well, the Government's duty to consult is too restrictive. I hope that the Minister will indicate the way in which his Department will consult. Will it take into account and discuss the views of those beyond the Cinematograph Films 1845 Council? I consider wider consultation to be wholly desirable. I understand that there is a sense of some injustice in some bodies in the industry. The matters raised by clause 7, and perhaps matters that go wider than the clause, deserve the widest possible consultation. I invite the Minister to outline how he sees the consultations developing and with which bodies they will take place. I hope that he will say that they will go beyond the CFC.
§ Mr. Tony Durant (Reading, North)I declare an interest as a consultant for the Film Production Association of Great Britain Ltd. I support the view that wider consultation is important.
The industry is concerned about the membership of the Cinematograph Films Council, which sometimes tends to be too narrow in its outlook. If my hon. Friend the Under-Secretary is able to give certain reassurances, I shall feel pleased that the widest possible consultation is to take place. There are opportunities to put more members on the council. When the appointments are made, I hope that those who are concerned much more with the production side of the industry will be given the opportunity. Those who are engaged in production feel that they are not well represented.
I urge my hon. Friend to bear in mind the arguments for the widest possible consultation, which is important in an industry that often feels unprotected, not fully recognised and not fully supported by the Government. I urge my hon. Friend to consider this issue closely.
§ Mr. CryerI am pleased that the hon. Member for Reading, North (Mr. Durant) has urged upon the Minister the need for wider consultation. That is especially important when we bear in mind that clause 7 will suspend the quota by statutory instrument whereas it is possible to extend it only by primary legislation. Therefore, before an order is presented to the House it will be incumbent upon the Minister to have the widest possible consultation.
This issue was raised in Committee. The Under-Secretary of State gave the impression that the Cinematograph Films Council was a worthy body of independent, noble and lofty people who might be relied upon to give wonderful guidance. 1846 That may be so, but I suspect that bodies such as the council are described in rather better terms than can be ascribed to human beings. It is interesting that the hon. Gentleman says that there is some dissatisfaction with the CFC being the sole body of consultation and that consultation should be wider and as wide as possible. That is right. If what we said when discussing amendment No. 4 was correct and if the quota is suspended, or is likely to be suspended, by the Government, it is important that consultations should be as wide as possible.
I have mentioned previously the Association of Independent Producers. I do not say that it is the only other body that should be consulted, but it represents one of the sources of new and more radical thinking. I say " radical " not in a political sense but in a sense of commitment to making feature and short films in Britain. It is radical in a sense of seeking not to have its objectives watered down by commercial pressures. The association produces an interesting monthly newsletter. It has regular meetings. It promotes the showing and sale of independent productions. It is a body that should be consulted. That is the type of organisation that I have in mind in supporting the amendment.
I hope that the Minister will accept the amendment. I see no reason why the Bill should pass unamended. Our amendments cannot be considered by any conceivable stretching of the imagination to be wrecking in character. They are designed to improve the Bill. They represent, as has been demonstrated, a consensus view. Amendments are tabled in Committee and on Report to tighten legislation.
The Minister may say " Yes, I shall consult as widely as possible. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State will ensure that that is done. Of course, he has all these worthy bodies in mind." However, in two or three years we are likely to have another Secretary of State. The new incumbent will act not on what was said by a Minister in Committee or on Report but on what is set out in the legislation. If he is challenged in Parliament, he can rightly and justifiably say " But I followed the legislation. That is the duty upon me. It is not my duty to heed and follow the fine words of others." That is why we try to change 1847 the wording of Bills. ' Statutes are important because they have to be observed by Ministers.
I suggest that on this occasion the Minister should accept the amendment. I am sure that he will give assurances in the best of spirits, but he may not be in his present office in a year or two. Indeed, he may not be in the Government. The best way of proceeding is to accept the amendment. It will then be incorporated in legislation and we shall know that wider consultation will take place. It will give the Secretary of State discretion "as he deems fit". It will enable organisations that are not mentioned in the Act to say " We have something to say and you should listen to us. We hope that you deem fit that we should be consulted." This innocuous but helpful amendment should be accepted.
§ Mr. EyreI am grateful to the hon. Member for Hackney, Central (Mr. Davis) for the terms in which he introduced the amendment. It would reduce the statutory obligation to consult the Cinematograph Films Council to a discretionary power to consult the council plus any other bodies that the Secretary of State deemed fit. The CFC is the statutory body appointed to advise the Secretary of State on matters affecting the film industry. On an issue of such importance as that dealt with by clause 7—namely, the suspension of the quota—surely it is preferable to retain the statutory obligation to consult the council.
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I imagine that the real intention behind the amendment has become obscured. I am sure that it is not the Opposition's intention to reduce the obligation to consult the CFC, although that appears to be the effect of the words that have been used. It am sure that the purpose of the amendment is to extend the consultation by providing discretionary power to consult other bodies. Even so, such an amendment would not change the present position or that proposed in the Bill.
I appreciate the importance of consultations. I have noted carefully the words that have been used by the hon. Member for Hackney, Central and by the hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) and I appreciate the points made in support of those requests by my hon. Friend the Member for Reading, North (Mr. Durant). 1848 My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State has shown his willingness to consider all aspects of the problems affecting the industry. I have no doubt that consultation on those problems will be on a wide basis.
I assure hon. Members that the Secretary of State will want to act fairly and with great consideration in all these respects. There is nothing in the Bill to prevent the Secretary of State consulting other bodies on important film industry issues. The writing into the Bill of the discretonary power proposed would not change this. The strong point made by the hon. Member for Keighley is therefore answered. I emphasise that there would be no substantive difference and, therefore, no point in accepting the amendment.
Clearly, on important film industry issues it has been, and, as I have tried to say firmly, will continue to be, both sensible and helpful to consult widely. I am sure that the Secretary of State will not take a different attitude in the future.
§ Amendment negatived.