HC Deb 04 June 1980 vol 985 cc1413-5
15. Mr. Renton

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment to what extent he is satisfied with the local authorities' response to his request for reductions in their staffing levels.

Mr. Heseltine

On the basis of the available statistics, I am not at all satisfied. The Government's public expenditure plans require a much sharper reduction in manpower than is revealed in the December 1979 return of the Joint Manpower Watch.

Mr. Renton

Will my right hon. Friend continue with his sterling work in publicising local authority staffing levels? Does he recollect that the decline of the Spanish Empire was attributed to the fact that one in four adult males was in the Holy Roman Church? Is it not possible that the same fraction of Britain's working population is employed in either local government or central Government and that this is also responsible for the decline of Britain?

Mr. Heseltine

My hon. Friend refers to a period a bit before my time. I think a fair number of the people he mentions would have claimed divine inspiration. I do not think that applies to many people in local government today. There is plenty of room for reduction. It is necessary that, in the economies now before us, we should concentrate on reducing the levels of consumption rather than capital.

Mr. Gwilym Roberts

Would not the right hon. Gentleman accept that these cuts in staffing levels also mean cuts in social services, education provision and in house improvement and building? The only thing to which they add is the dole queue.

Mr. Heseltine

I am sure that the hon. Gentleman, who supported a reduction of 20,000 employees in 1976 compared with 5,000 last year, had those points much in mind. When structure plans are now largely complete, when far fewer public sector houses are being built, when the school population is falling and when fewer roads are being designed, it is humbug to talk about an inability to reduce local government manpower.

Mr. Major

Will my right hon. Friend agree that far too many local authorities are still protecting staffing levels at the expense of services? Will he not further agree that this is a dereliction of their responsibilities to ratepayers?

Mr. Heseltine

My hon. Friend makes the point most eloquently. The fact is that manpower could be reduced. This would make available more resources to provide better services and better value for money.

Mr. Hattersley

The Secretary of State has persistently refused to give information about housing. Since he now says that fewer houses are being built this year, will he say how many fewer than last year?

Mr. Heseltine

The right hon. Gentleman will be aware, as a supporter of the policy, that the number of public sector houses has been reduced every year for the last four years. Rather than trying to make irrelevant points about numbers in precise terms, the right hon. Gentleman would be better employed in remembering that only 12 months ago he was supporting the very policies about which we are now talking.

Mr. Hattersley

The right hon. Gentleman has persistently refused to give information about housing. Will he say how many fewer houses will be built this year than last year?

Mr. Heseltine

The right hon. Gentleman is fully aware that the Secretary of State in the previous Government constantly believed he could forecast the level of local authority building and failed to get the figures right.

Mr. William Hamilton

Answer.

Mr. Heseltine

I have learnt by that experience. I do not intend to make judgments when I do not have the information to support them.