SHORT TITLE, COMMENCEMENT AND EXTENT (Hansard, 28 July 1980)

§ Mr. Mayhew
I beg to move, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.
This amendment enables the provisions of the Bill which are listed to be brought into effect by a commencement order.
1227 Clauses 1 and 2, which enable the Secretary of State to establish a scheme to provide funds for secret union ballots and to produce codes of practice, will come into effect immediately the Bill receives Royal Assent. The main reason for the amendment is to enable the codes of practice provision, which is purely enabling, to come into force immediately the Bill receives Royal Assent, so that consultation on the draft codes can proceed at the earliest possible moment.
Clause 1 is similarly enabling, in that it enables the Secretary of State to make, by regulations, a scheme providing for payment out of public funds for union ballots. It seems reasonable to bring these enabling powers into operation at the time of Royal Assent. I commend the amendment to the House.

§ Mr. Ronald W. Brown (Hackney, South and Shoreditch)
I should like the Minister to clarify one matter. The Secretary of State was kind enough to see myself and others about schedule 11 to the 1975 Act, which is listed in schedule 2. As I understand it, schedule 2 is to come into effect on a date to be determined by the Secretary of State. Am I to understand that he has conceded that schedule 11 shall be deleted from schedule 2 and that he will not interfere with the happy relationships in the furniture industry?

§ Mr. Harold Walker
Before the Minister replies to my hon. Friend, will he clear up another point? There is a tremendous amount of interest in the time at which the Bill will become operative and when the different provisions will become effective. However, there is a great deal of misunderstanding. In the Daily Mail this morning—and I could hardly blame the Minister if he said that I should not take notice of what I read in the newspapers, particularly the Daily Mail—Mr. Gordon Greig, the political editor, reported that the Bill would become law two days from Wednesday—on 1 August. I should be rather surprised to hear that there were any real grounds for believing that. None the less, many people take notice of what they read in the newspapers, so that misunderstanding should be cleared up.
There is a widespread assumption that once the Bill obtains the Royal Assent 1228 every part of it will become operative immediately. We in the House know that that is not the case, but not everyone outside knows that. Many of those involved in the day-to-day management of industrial relations are not aware of it either. They do not know that the Bill will become effective—apart from those enabling provisions that have just been referred to—on a day appointed by the Secretary of State. We should be grateful if the right hon. Gentleman would make that clear and also indicate when he expects the different parts to become operative. There is great interest in the Bill, and this is an important point.

§ Mr. Mikardo
Two parts of the Bill come into operation immediately it receives the Royal Assent. I am not concerned about the ballot provisions. That measure is the deadest dead duck that there ever was. It is one part of the Bill that will never be taken up. However, I am greatly concerned about the codes of practice. I do not ask for a commitment, but may we have a guesstimate of how long consultations will take? I am sure that the Department of Employment is working on the Bill, and I dare say that a rough target date has been suggested for various aspects. I realise that there are often unexpected difficulties, and we shall not hold the Secretary of State to every dot and comma, but we should like a rough estimate.

§ Mr. John Evans
I, too, am concerned about the codes of practice. I agree with my hon. Friend the Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Mikardo) that the ballot will not happily be adopted by the trade union movement.
The codes of practice could be used in evidence before a tribunal. Who will be consulted by the Secretary of State in drawing up the codes? The TUC has made it plain to the Secretary of State that it is not prepared to discuss the codes of practice with the Government. Whom do the Government therefore intend to consult? A code of practice for industrial relations that has not been discussed with the TUC is not worth the paper on which it is written. The Secretary of State is laying emphasis on the virtue of a code of practice. I therefore feel that he should bend over backwards to get agreement with the TUC.
1229 In which areas do the Government seek to introduce codes of practice? We know about picketing. I hope that the report is wrong, but I have read that the Secretary of State is considering limiting pickets to six people. In Committee much was said that should persuade the right hon. Gentleman quickly to drop that hot brick.
Will the Secretary of State assure us that no code of practice will be issued while the House is in recess? I trust that we shall have the opportunity of at least a brief debate on the codes of practice. I should have thought that it would be a good idea for the Secretary of State to consult Parliament on the codes of practice. He knows that his hon. Friends have no knowledge of industrial relations, but he appreciates that there is a welter of such knowledge on the Opposition side, and we should be only too happy to help him draw up codes of practice on a variety of trade union activities. I hope that the Secretary of State will tread warily and will attempt to get the agreement of the trade union movement on the codes of practice. The cost of achieving that agreement may be the dropping of large parts of the Bill, but I assure the right hon. Gentleman that that would be an even better exercise.

§ Mr. Mayhew
I can tell the hon. Member for Hackney, South and Shoreditch (Mr. Brown) that there is no change in the intention of the Government to repeal schedule 11.
The right hon. Member for Doncaster (Mr Walker) asked when the Bill will come into force. The right hon. Gentleman knows that that cannot be controlled by the Government. Once the Bill leaves the House it is the responsibility of Mr. Speaker, and the precise date of the coming into force lies within the control of Her Majesty, but we expect that it will be at an early date.
The hon. Member for Bethnal Green and Bow (Mr. Mikardo) asked about codes of practice. We intend to consult widely on them, and the period for consultation will last from the date when the codes are published—immediately or shortly after the coming into force of the Act—and 10 October.
The hon. Member for Newton (Mr. Evans) asked whom we would consult. I said at Question Time last week that we intend to consult all the bodies that 1230 we consulted on the working papers that formed the foundation of the Bill. That includes the TUC and the CBI and other representative bodies, including all those that represent the police. Although the TUC has said that it feels unable to assist us in the formation of a code of practice, we hope that it will be able to give us its advice on the codes on closed shops and picketing that my right hon. Friend will publish.
The hon. Gentleman asked what other codes are envisaged. The answer is that at present no code is envisaged on any other subject.

§ Mr. Mikardo
The hon and learned Gentleman has either misunderstood or failed to answer the basic question of my right hon. Friend the Member for Doncaster (Mr. Walker). We know that the Bill must await Royal Assent before it comes into force, but as the Secretary of State is to decide the date of the coming into force of various clauses when does he think that he might make an order to activate those provisions?

§ Mr. Mayhew
As soon as practicable.

§ Mr. Harold Walker
This will be the last opportunity that we shall have to press the Government on this important matter. Many thousands engaged in the day-to-day management—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker (Mr. Bernard Weatherill)
Order. The right hon. Gentleman cannot make another speech. The Minister has sat down.

§ Mr. Harold Walker
With the leave of the House—

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
Order. As it is late at night, I shall allow the right hon. Gentleman to make an intervention.

§ Mr. Harold Walker
I am grateful, Mr. Deputy Speaker. This is an important matter. Many engaged in industry and commerce, and in the trade union movement, will need to make arrangements in anticipation of the coming into operation of different parts of the Bill. There is a widespread erroneous assumption that the whole Bill will become operative on the day that it receives Royal Assent. People need to be disabused of that notion and given some rough guidance—no more than that—of when the various parts of the legislation will, if all goes right, be made effective.

§ Mr. Prior
Some parts of the Bill will come into operation by commencement order within about two weeks, and others about a month later than that. As my hon. and learned Friend said, we shall consult widely on the codes of practice. We should like to publish them as soon as the Bill becomes law. We cannot publish them sooner than that. As soon as the Bill becomes law, we shall publish the codes of practice. They will be available for consultation until 10 October, and the House will be asked to come to a decision on them, after debate, on our return.

§ Mr. Greville Janner
Is it not important for industry to know, for example, when the new maternity rules are to come into force? Entirely new procedures will have to be put into operation. Surely it is the Minister's wish that those who have to deal with these rules know which of the rules will come into force in two weeks, which in a month, and which as soon as reasonably practicable thereafter. It must be reasonable to tell people when and how to change their arrangements.

§ Mr. Prior
I am not certain of the date, but I recognise the force of what the hon. and learned Gentleman says, and I shall answer a question on the matter in the House so that people in industry will know exactly when the maternity provisions will come into operation.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
The Question is, That this House doth agree with the Lords in the said amendment.

§ Mr. Walter Harrison (Wakefield)
No.