HC Deb 23 July 1980 vol 989 cc490-2
60. Mr. Chapman

asked the Minister for the Civil Service what was the total of non-industrial civil servants in 1969 and 1979, respectively; and what was the total number of industrial civil servants in 1969 and 1979, respectively.

The Minister of State, Civil Service Department (Mr. Paul Channon)

At 1 April 1969, there were 470,000 non-industrial civil servants and 214,300 industrial civil servants in central Government Departments, excluding the Post Office. Numbers at 1 April 1979 were 565,800 non-industrials and 166,500 industrials.

Mr. Chapman

Do not those figures reveal that a pretty substantial decline in the number of industrial civil servants has concealed an even more massive increase in the number of non-industrial civil servants? Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important to distinguish between these two quite different categories? Will he always try to do so when giving statistics on future occasions?

Mr. Channon

My hon. Friend is right on both points. I am glad to be able to tell him that the most recent figures show a further reduction in the size of the Civil Service by just under 5,000, to 700,200. In fact, that represents a reduction both in the number of non-industrial and industrial civil servants.

Mr. Dalyell;

What is the policy on the recruitment of youngsters to the Civil Service? Is not there a great danger that if one cuts back recruiting at this stage one distorts the Civil Service structure for many years to come?

Mr. Channon

I think that a considerable amount of recruiting is still going on, because the wastage in the Civil Service is very much greater than the figures that I have just given.

Mr. Marlow

As the non-industrial Civil Service is the most cosseted and unjustifiably secure occupation in the country at present, when will my right hon. Friend take action to pay such people as civil servants instead of as civil masters, as they are paid at present?

Mr. Channon

I do not think that I would accept everything which my hon. Friend has said—most unusually. However, we shall shortly reach a separate question about pay.

Mr. Wrigglesworth

Does the Minister accept that, as a result of the proposed cutbacks in Civil Service manpower the Government are directly responsible for increasing the level of unemployment, by reducing the opportunities for new recruits, particularly school leavers, to enter the service? Will he think again about what he said when he last answered oral questions—that all the Civil Service sector is non-productive? Will he realise, as his hon. Friend the Member for Chipping Barnet (Mr. Chapman) has pointed out, that areas such as the Export Credits Guarantee Department are an integral part of the productive capacity of the country, as are many of the non-industrial sectors? In the light of yesterday's unemployment figures, will he think again about the cuts that have been announced?

Mr. Channon

The one thing that I am absolutely certain about is that we shall not cure Britain's economic or employment problems merely by increasing the number of jobs in the Civil Service. There will still be a substantial amount of recruitment, but I believe it to be in the national interest that we should have the smallest and most effidient Civil Service that we can.