§ 32. Mr. Soleyasked the Attorney-General if, in the light of the recent statement by the Secretary of State for the Home Department on prison overcrowding, the Lord Chancellor will arrange a sentencing conference for magistrates to discuss reducing the use of custodial sentences in cases of social security fraud.
§ The Attorney-GeneralAdequate facilities for sentencing conferences already exist, and full use will be made of these. A single sentencing conference for the entire magistracy, whether for a single purpose or generally, is not a feasible proposition.
§ Mr. SoleyDoes not the Attorney-General owe it to the Home Secretary to help him face the crisis in our prisons? Is he aware that a man in my constituency was recently gaoled for one month for defrauding the DHSS of £110, despite the fact that he had not been in trouble for 12 years? Does not the right hon. and learned Gentleman accept that as we do not readily gaol people for fiddling expense accounts or income tax, there can be no justification for doing so in such social security cases, where com- 26 munity service orders are available? Will the Attorney-General arrange a sentencing conference that will give guidance to magistrates and judges?
§ The Attorney-GeneralGuidance to magistrates will come from sentencing conferences—which are going on all the time—from the presiding judge, from the Lord Chancellor or, more often, from the courts. I remind the hon. Gentleman of what was said in the Divisional Court on 8 October 1979. The presiding judge said:
Where persons deliberately defraud the State of social security moneys, an immediate custodial sentence is inevitable and is to be expected where there is a substantial plundering of the public purse.
§ Mr. Archie HamiltonDoes not my right hon. and learned Friend accept that, as overcrowding continues, pressures on magistrates to impose shorter sentences, or no sentences for lesser crimes, are increasing? Is not the answer to build more prisons?
§ The Attorney-GeneralUntil that situation has been achieved, my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary and others will advise magistrates. Obviously, directions cannot be given. Only advice can be offered. The present tendency towards finding an alternative to custody for less serious crimes is appreciated by the courts.
§ Mr. SpriggsIs the right hon. and learned Gentleman aware that constituents who are charged with defrauding the DHSS are being convicted by magistrates' courts without being given legal aid or advice? Will he take powers to ensure that the poorest people in the land are given the best legal aid in defence of their cases?
§ The Attorney-GeneralI am surprised that that has happened. Generally, legal aid is available to anyone who does not have the means of providing for his defence in a magistrates' court. If the hon. Gentleman writes to me about the cases he has in mind, I shall make inquiries.