HC Deb 02 July 1980 vol 987 cc1525-37
The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Humphrey Atkins)

With permission, Mr. Speaker, I will make a statement on Northern Ireland.

The Government have today published a Command Paper entitled "The Government of Northern Ireland—Proposals for Further Discussion". Copies are available in the Vote Office. Publication of this paper is the latest stage in a process that began with the resolve expressed in the Gracious Speech to: seek an acceptable way of restoring to the people of Northern Ireland more control over their own affairs. Last summer I held talks with the leaders of the principal political parties in Northern Ireland, and in October last I announced the Government's intention to hold a political conference to identify the highest level of agreement on how powers might be transferred to locally elected representatives. To assist that conference we published a working paper—Cmnd. 7763. That working paper set out certain principles to which the Government believe any transfer of responsibility should conform, and it gave a number of illustrations of ways in which transferred powers might be exercised.

The conference met in Belfast between January and March, and was attended by three of the four main Northern Ireland parties. It did valuable work. It identified a substantial number of issues on which very little seemed to divide the parties. It enabled the parties to describe in detail to me and to each other what their views were and the reasons for them, and it explored very fully the key questions that still have to be resolved if we are to establish any kind of acceptable local administration in Northern Ireland.

Mr. R. C. Mitchell

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. At the beginning of his statement the Secretary of State said that copies of the document were available at the Vote Office. They are not. Could someone make inquiries?

Mr. Speaker

I shall have inquiries made.

Mr. Atkins

Copies should be available. In addition, we have had the benefit of submissions and views expressed by parties and individuals not represented at the conference, including the paper submitted to the Prime Minister by the Ulster Unionist Party.

The document published today has two principal aims. First, it describes those areas where it is now possible to see fairly clearly how powers might be transferred. For example, there is a clear desire for the transfer of both legislative and executive powers over a range of subjects similar to that transferred in 1973, and for the establishment of a single elected Assembly for Northern Ireland with about 80 members. As was made clear in the working paper, the Government at Westminster would need to continue to be responsible for certain functions, especially law and order and the determination of Northern Ireland's share of the total of public expenditure, and some arrangements would be needed whereby elected representatives were able to give advice to the Secretary of State on the exercise of those functions.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

That is us.

Mr. Atkins

Secondly, the document analyses and puts forward for discussion proposals on those aspects where, as is well known, there is disagreement between the parties, namely, how the executive powers of government in Northern Ireland are to be exercised so as to take account of the interests of both parts of the community as the principles in the working paper put it.

On the one hand, some wish to see the Executive formed by the leader of the party or parties commanding a simple majority in the Assembly. On the other, some believe that an adequate role for representatives of the minority community could only be assured if executive powers are exercised by a more broadly based body.

Mr. Skinner

Another house of cards.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I am sorry to interrupt the Secretary of State, but I must say to the hon. Member for Bolsover (Mr. Skinner) that it is unfair, as well as discourteous, to hold a running conversation while someone else is addressing the House. It is simply a matter of good manners.

Mr. Skinner

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I heard the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) making a few odd comments. I thought that if it was in order for a Privy Councillor to do so it might have been in order for me. I was merely pointing out that—

Mr. Speaker

Order. It really should be possible for the Secretary of State to make a statement on a serious subject such as this and be heard in silence.

Mr. Atkins

It is clear that further discussion and negotiation are needed in Northern Ireland on this issue, and the Government have set out in the paper specific proposals, on two somewhat different approaches, as a basis for further talks with and between the parties.

I do not need to tell the House the importance of this subject to the people of Northern Ireland and to the people of the United Kingdom as a whole. For that reason I ask, and I believe that the House would expect, that all concerned should study this document with great care. I do not intend this afternoon to summarise the contents of the document. It deserves more extended consideration, and my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House has already promised an early debate, when I look forward to hearing the considered views of hon. Members.

Following that debate, my colleagues and I will discuss the proposals as widely as possible in Northern Ireland. I hope also to embark upon bilateral discussions with the Northern Ireland parties, and I shall of course welcome any views or ideas that may be put forward for our consideration. I envisage these talks taking place in confidence and, to begin with at least, with the parties separately. It is not my intention for the time being to reconvene the conference.

For my part, I approach these talks determined to make progress. I must emphasise that for that to happen a constructive approach is needed from the people of Northern Ireland and their political representatives. It is my hope to complete this further stage by the end of the Summer Recess. The Government can then reach their own conclusions on what proposals it would be appropriate to put before the House.

The document published today refers to the need for peace and stability in Northern Ireland as a basis for economic reconstruction. The present economic situation in the Province is a telling reminder of how urgent that task is and how desirable it is for the elected representatives of Northern Ireland to be directly involved in it.

I would say one final thing. The House will be aware that the men of criminal violence will, if they can, disrupt the progress of political discussion and reconciliation, and hon. Members on all sides will, I hope, join with me in appealing to the people of Northern Ireland to support the security forces who are committed against terrorism, so that these further discussions about their future can take place quietly and with confidence.

Mr. English

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In view of what the Secretary of State said, will you refrain from asking anyone to put a supplementary question today? The Secretary of State said that right hon. and hon. Members should consider the Green Paper, which we cannot do at present, in view of the earlier point of order that was raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Mitchell). Therefore, I suggest that you should ask for supplementary questions tomorrow.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster and Leader of the House of Commons (Mr. Norman St. John-Stevas)

Further to the earlier point of order, Mr. Speaker. I have checked on the situation. The paper is, in fact, available at the Vote Office.

Mr. Speaker

On the point of order raised by the hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English), the House has heard the statement and I am sure that every hon. Member will want to behave responsibly. I am bound to allow some supplementary questions on a major statement on a matter that hon. Members know to be an important and delicate issue.

Mr. John

Will the right hon. Gentleman accept from me and others in the House that as the statement is thin and somewhat lacking in detail, and as the White Paper is, at best, not long to hand, we cannot go into detail on this statement and we shall welcome the opportunity of an early debate on it?

We are all disappointed that the right hon. Gentleman has not got a great deal further with his talks than he appears to have done. There is so much still to do, particularly in terms of deciding how the powers that he agrees should be referred to the Northern Ireland Executive are to be exercised.

Does the Secretary of State agree that the talks that he proposes to launch in Northern Ireland as a result of the White Paper will be crucial if any progress is to be made? We want to see a properly devolved Assembly, with people working together in Northern Ireland, as the main aim, but may we assume that such an Assembly will not be established without a wide measure of agreement in the Province?

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned talks. Is he aware that since there is so much hanging on the talks between the communities in Northern Ireland, the Labour Party will not do anything to impede those talks or to make an admittedly already difficult task much harder?

The task is not made any easier by the Secretary of State's conduct of economic affairs. He will know, as I know, that the debate on the constitution will take place in the framework of a Northern Ireland that is in severe economic decline. That will obviously colour the attitudes of those who are considering constitutional ways forward.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that I agree with what he said about the men of violence? I condemn them and hope that they will not be allowed to get in the way of the proper talks by those who desire nothing more than peace. I agree wholeheartedly that the only place where law and order for Northern Ireland can be controlled is this House.

Is the right hon. Gentleman considering a referendum to validate the proposals for constitutional change if he gets far enough to put them to such a test?

Mr. Atkins

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for saying that the Labour Party will not seek to hinder the talks that are necessary. He said that there is still a lot to do, and he is right. However, we have made substantial progress over the past months and, as the hon. Gentleman will find if he studies the White Paper, there is quite an area of agreement that is clear to all.

It is essential—the Government have laid this down as a pre-condition from the word "go"—that any proposals must be acceptable to both communities in Northern Ireland. It is that acceptability that we are seeking to pursue the whole time.

The hon. Gentleman mentioned the economic situation. I shall not discuss that in detail today, but I believe that it will be of advantage to Northern Ireland if its elected representatives have some power in Northern Ireland, which they do not have at the moment. That is at the back of everything that we are seeking to do.

We have never ruled out a referendum, and I certainly do not rule it out now.

Mr. Molyneaux

I thank the right hon. Gentleman for agreeing to the request of my party and the official Opposition for the statement to be made in the House and not elsewhere. For reasons that will be obvious, I have not seen the document, but may I ask whether the right hon. Gentleman is aware that any attempt to resurrect the 1973 rigged Executive would be rejected by the electorate in Northern Ireland as decisively as was that earlier experiment?

Is the Secretary of State aware that any design for two rival Cabinets would be a recipe for disaster and would make government in Northern Ireland impossible? As the 1972 Stormont Government were dismissed and abolished for refusing to relinquish powers over security, what credibility could be attached to any structure from which those powers were withheld?

Mr. Atkins

The hon. Gentleman will find the answers to his questions in the White Paper, which I know he will study with great care. There are alternative approaches to the method of forming the Executive and the way in which it should work. Neither is precisely what has happened in Northern Ireland before, and I can assure the hon. Gentleman at once that there will not be two Cabinets.

If I invited the House to agree to a transfer of responsibility for law and order when there were still 12,000 Regular Army soldiers in Northern Ireland I think that the House would decisively reject such a request.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that no matter what proposals he is putting before the House for discussion, the people of Northern Ireland are gravely concerned about the deterioration in the security situation? Is he aware that this year alone the IRA has claimed to be responsible for 35 hideous murders? Is he aware that one of the UDR victims this week received a letter from the right hon. Gentleman's office denying him the use of a personal weapon for his defence and that his wife got the letter after her husband had been mown down at Aughnacloy? Does the right hon. Gentleman not think that that sort of situation is one with which he should concern himself?

I welcome the fact that there is no mention in the White Paper of any involvement by the Government of the Republic. That will be generally welcomed in Northern Ireland. What response is the Secretary of State prepared to make to the representations made to him in Northern Ireland that any new Assembly should have some sort of role in security matters? There is such a role even for local government, through district councils, in Northern Ireland at present.

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that any attempt that he or any future Government may make to rig a Government in Northern Ireland so that the minority can, by artificial devices, become a majority and exercise a veto will be unacceptable and will be utterly rejected by the electorate of Northern Ireland?

Mr. Atkins

The pursuit of political advance has not detracted in any way from the Government's determination to overcome terrorism, nor will it do so. If the parties in Northern Ireland can agree to support a structure of government, that will be a big step forward in isolating the terrorists still further from the community. I know that the hon. Gentleman will study the proposals. He will find the answers to at least some of his questions there. The role of any new Executive in security matters will be an important advisory role, though responsibility will remain with the Government at Westminster.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Is the Secretary of State aware that the Liberal Party supports his request to the main political parties in Northern Ireland to give his proposals a fair wind and not to reject them out of hand? Is it his experience from his time of office in Northern Ireland that the ordinary residents there desperately want their political leaders to get together so that a meaningful Assembly can be re-established at Stormont to deal with those matters that it would be best able to deal with?

Mr. Atkins

It is my understanding that the people of Northern Ireland want the matter resolved so that they can once more have an elected body in Northern Ireland responsible for a wide range of activities. I am certain that that is what they want, and the response of the people of Northern Ireland to the setting up of the conference was indicative of that. Overwhelmingly, they wanted their political leaders to talk, and I am glad that they did.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The House knows that there is to be a reasonably early debate on this matter. I propose to call four more hon. Members from each side of the House to elicit what information they wish.

Mr. Biggs-Davison

While wishing my right hon. Friend well in his search for co-operation in what he calls the two parts of the community in Northern Ireland, may I ask whether the Government will bear in mind the effect of any proposals for legislative devolution on the other parts of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Atkins

I am grateful for my hon. Friend's good wishes. The answer to his question is "Yes".

Mr. Donald Stewart

Can the right hon. Gentleman give any rational and honest explanation why the Government are busy laying on separate government for Northern Ireland, in view of the opposition of one of the main parties there and the belief of the majority of the residents that they are more British than people on the mainland when, at the same time, the Government refuse devolution for Scotland, for which the majority voted in favour?

Mr. Atkins

The right hon. Gentleman is mistaken in his original assertion. It is the declared policy of all the political parties in Northern Ireland that devolution should come to the Province. The other difference between Northern Ireland and the other parts of the United Kingdom is that this is what people were accustomed to up to 1972, and they want it back again.

Mr. McNamara

May I first thank the right hon. Gentleman for agreeing to make a statement to the House in response to the wishes of the House expressed last Thursday? We are grateful to him. Is it the Government's intention, at the end of the period of discussions—whether or not there is a referendum—to legislate for some sort of Assembly, come what may, whether or not an agreement exists?

Mr. Atkins

I am always happy to make a statement to the House, if that is what the House wants. In answer to the second part of the hon. Gentleman's question, that is what we hope to do. If we can get a high level of acceptance of a system in Northern Ireland, we shall lay before the House proposals for legislation.

Mr. Mates

In wishing my right hon. Friend well in the talks to come, may I ask him to impress upon all parties to those talks the urgency that now exists to bring these matters to a conclusion and a decision? Is he aware that since it is undoubtedly the wish of all people in all communities in Northern Ireland to resolve this long-standing problem, the leaders owe it to all of us to stop prevaricating, to come together and to discuss the matter, and agree, or not agree, that some means forward can be found? Does my right hon. Friend agree that if there is no agreement the Government must consider the question of continued direct rule for an indefinite period?

Mr. Atkins

I agree that there is an urgency about the matter. We have been pursuing this aim for 14 months. There is a desire in Northern Ireland for an accommodation. I hope very much that the political parties with which I hope to have discussions will press ahead with this. We hope to achieve a high degree of acceptability. It is no use the Government putting before the House proposals that are not going to be accepted in Northern Ireland. I believe that there is a chance, and I shall pursue the matter as energetically as I can.

Mr. S. C. Silkin

I am sure that virtually the whole House would hope that there would be a high degree of acceptability of the proposals of the Government, but have the Government considered the situation that would arise if that were not achieved? If so, what conclusions have they reached?

Mr. Atkins

Yes, Sir. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman will study paragraph 64 of the paper, he will find the Government's thoughts on that matter.

Mr. Peter Mills

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is important to make a start after all these years? That is why I wish him well in what he is attempting. I am sure that, on the whole, the people of Northern Ireland wish to make a fresh start. Will my right hon. Friend try to go forward in those areas where agreement has already been reached and then gradually proceed to other areas, as confidence is gained?

Mr. Atkins

That is a possible approach, and one that we might consider. I will be frank with the House. We are aiming higher than that at this stage. I hope very much that we can make an advance in the directions that we have indicated in the paper.

Mr. McCusker

Is the Secretary of State not yet aware that the fundamental concern of my constituents is to stay alive and to hold on to their jobs if they are lucky enough still to have jobs? What reassurance can the right hon. Gentleman give that this paper contains anything that is likely to deal with either of those important matters? Will he give an assurance that in the bilateral talks that are about to take place the Official Unionist Party will be able to raise these two vital matters with him?

Mr. Atkins

The establishment of a generally agreed system of government in Northern Ireland that the whole community could support would, in my judgment, be a great step forward in the security situation. It would totally isolate the terrorists. This is a prize that we must all seek to gain. On the economic front, I hope very much that we can make some arrangements that will enable people elected in Northern Ireland to play a part in the economic affairs of the country. This is what we are after. I hope that we can do it.

Dr. Mawhinney

I welcome this paper from my right hon. Friend. In respect of the discussion on which he is about to embark, can he say whether he will choose those with whom he wishes to consult, or whether he will consult those who wish to consult him?

Mr. Atkins

I want to have the widest possible discussions throughout the Province. The first discussions that I hope will take place is a debate in this House but thereafter I am anxious to talk to anyone who has ideas about how we can make progress.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to refer to the point raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Southampton, Itchen (Mr. Mitchell) on the general principle and not the particular case. With great respect, I do not mean to be critical either of the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland or the Leader of the House. We have, Mr. Speaker, by arrangement with you, a request that a statement should be made. Therefore, obviously, the Minister must have consulted you. In that statement, he makes a claim that papers are available. We are then advised that the papers are not available [Interruption.] This is not a laughing matter. It is a serious matter. We are then told, nine minutes afterwards, that the papers are available.

I am not criticising this Government. It has happened on many occasions in the past, under both Governments. It is rather discourteous to Mr. Speaker. If you are told, Mr. Speaker, by advance notice, that a statement is to be made—I understand, rightly, that you are given a copy of that statement—and the statement says that papers are available, and the press and everyone except the House of Commons has a copy, it is surely incumbent on the Government—neither of the right hon. Gentlemen responsible is listening—especially when a printed document must have been prepared some hours, if not days, before, to see that the papers are available.

My point of order is this: will you, Mr. Speaker, see to it—I think, with respect, that this is the job of the Chair—that papers and documents are available. When any Minister tells you that papers and documents are available, steps should be taken, before the statement is made, to ensure that the papers and documents are in fact available.

Mr. Speaker

I am much obliged to the hon. Gentleman. It was not at my request that the unusual—I think it is unusual—step was taken, when a Minister was to make a statement, for a copy to be put in the Vote Office. The hon. Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) has on several occasions requested that this be done. He has done so on a point of order at the end of questions in statements. I can also tell the hon. Gentleman —since it is not generally known—that although the House sees that I read a statement, I get it when the Minister rises in his place. It is not my responsibility. It is the responsibility of the Minister concerned. It is not for me to defend the Front Bench; it is their responsibility. I think, however, that an effort was made today to make the statement available.

Mr. English

Further to the point of order, Mr. Speaker. This system of publishing things after a statement has been made brings the whole system of government into contempt. Had this document been published earlier, all hon. Members would have had the opportunity to notice that paragraph 26 contains a complete misstatement of fact about the system of election in Northern Ireland. This is rather important.

It would have been easier if that had been pointed out earlier. Now the error must be pointed out afterwards and the Government will be brought into contempt for not getting the facts right.

Mr. Speaker

The contents of documents are not my responsibility. The House will have the opportunity to debate the document, as we have been promised.

Mr. Nicholas Winterton

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Am I correct in thinking that a few minutes ago you said that you would call four additional hon. Members from either side of the House? Am I right in thinking that so far you have called only three hon. Members from either side? I hope that I shall be the fourth additional hon. Member to be called from this side, because I am particularly interested in what happens in Northern Ireland. Is it your intention, Mr. Speaker, to call a further hon. Member from either side of the House?

Mr. Speaker

I called four hon. Members from either side. I have the names before me. I must confess that I was becoming a little anxious for the health of the hon. Member for Macclesfield (Mr. Winterton), as I could see that he was becoming more and more frustrated at not being called. From time to time that is the lot of almost all hon. Members.