HC Deb 29 January 1980 vol 977 cc1267-81

Question again proposed.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

A local education authority will continue to be able to help parents with arrangements for getting their children to school, but of course that authority will be able to charge for whatever services it provides at its discretion, subject only to the requirement that free home-to-school transport must be provided for a pupil if he is attending the nearest appropriate school, the school is more than walking distance from home and the parents receive supplementary benefit or family income supplement.

May I make it quite clear that it is not the Government's intention to do anything which could be regarded as discriminating against families whose children attend Church schools as a matter of religious conviction. Although the law does not require the local education authority to provide assistance if there is a nearer appropriate county school, in practice the policy of the Government and the local education authorities has been that free travel arrangements should be made where this has seemed reasonable. It is the view of the Government that such families should be treated no less favourably than they would have been had the child been attending the appropriate county school.

Information about the way the local authorities plan to use their new powers suggests that transport now provided free will not be withdrawn and that the same charge will be applied whether the school is a county school or a voluntary school. My right hon. Friend is able to say—

Mr. Beith


Mr. St. John-Stevas

No. I have a limited amount of time and there are a number of points I want to make. The hon. Gentleman has had his say. Will he please wait for me to finish this important point?

I have discussed this matter with my right hon. and learned Friend. He will listen during Committee stage to all the points that are made and he will consider bringing forward an amendment at Report stage if he thinks it necessary to ensure that there can be no discrimination against children attending denominational schools.

Mr. Beith

Is the right hon. Gentleman suggesting that local authorities could do the reverse, by making no charges for Roman Catholic pupils, having had to introduce charges for pupils attending State schools who live at a distance from the schools?

Mr. St. John-Stevas

What I am suggesting is that the attitude of the Government on this point is reasonable and flexible and that we do not expect any change in practice.

May I get back to the subject of the guillotine? Speaking as a parliamentarian, I regard the guillotine as a necessary evil. [Interruption.] The hon. Gentleman must let me continue.

Mr. Buchan

The right hon. Gentleman is being nasty.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

I am not being nasty; I merely want to develop my argument. I will give way to the hon. Gentleman later.

I put it no higher and no lower than that. Of course, no Government should resort to a guillotine lightly. That is so. It is certainly true, too, that the case for its employment should be clearly proved and that there should be clear evidence that reasonable time has been allowed for discussion. In a sentence, I do not believe that the House should proceed on the basis that the guillotine is a stranger to its procedures. Those are not my words; they are the words of the right hon. Gentleman the Shadow Leader of the House speaking on one of the many guillotine motions in which he has been involved.

Mr. Kinnock


Mr. Speaker

Order. It appears that the Minister is not giving way.

Mr. Kinnock

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Both you and I, recognising the importance of the statement that the right hon. Gentleman made in the first five minutes of his speech, did not interrupt him on a matter of order when his words were totally irrelevant to the guillotine motion. I tried to interrupt him at that time but he would not give way. I shall continue to interrupt him now.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

I am unmoved by that threat, Mr. Speaker.

An important point was raised by the hon. Member for Bedwellty (Mr. Kinnock) and I answered it on behalf of my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State. Any reasonable person would have trought that that was a right and proper way to do so and would not wish to get involved in a general debate on the substantial issues that are involved—

Mr. Kinnock


Mr. Speaker

Order. It appears that the Minister will not give way. He has been called to address the House, he has the Floor, and he is not giving way.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

Of course, the point should be pursued. However, the place to pursue it is not in a guillotine debate but in the resumed Committee stage.

Mr. Kinnock


Mr. Speaker: Order

. We are beginning to become disorderly. If the Minister does not give way, he must be allowed to continue to make his speech.

Mr. Kinnock

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I earnestly regret my course of action, especially in view of the brief time that is left for the debate. However, the right hon. Gentleman cannot make an important statement and run away without being cross-questioned on it. That is the sort of thing that causes disorder.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

In general, Labour Governments have been traditionally much more eager to resort to guillotines than Tory Governments. [Interruption.] That is true. The evidence is there. Over the last 20 years, Labour Governments—

Mr. Walter Harrison (Wakefield)

Look at the number.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

I am looking at the numbers and I see that that has been the case over the last 20 years. However, a beneficial side effect has been the embarrassing number of quotations from the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale (Mr. Foot) which could be distributed impartially on both sides of the argument—I make that concession to him. Such is his agility that, had we command of the time machine of H. G. Wells, it would be perfectly possible for the right hon. Gentleman to carry on the whole of the debate by himself. It would be like a parliamentary game of Chinese ping pong. First, we would have him saying that he sees a Labour Government as having a right and a duty to legislate against any attempts to frustrate us in the end from exercising our rights of legislation…of course, it is a particular illustration of the malice, folly and absurdity into which right hon. and hon. Opposition Members place themselves that when we exercise those ancient rights it is cheating and when they exercise them it is freedom."—[Official Report, 20 July 1976; Vol. 915, c. 1543] That is what the right hon. Gentleman said when he was speaking in favour of a guillotine on 20 July 1976.

Mr. Foot

It seems to me that the right hon. Gentleman's speech is greatly improving as it goes along. I hope that he will keep up that standard until the end. He might feel that I am being intensely out of order, but I wonder whether he will answer some of the questions that have been put in the debate. I suggest that, instead of devoting the rest of his time to quoting my speeches—gratifying though I know that would be for the whole House—he should take his courage in both hands and try to answer the question that was put to him directly earlier in the debate. That direct question was about how the Government will behave when the guillotine falls—if it does—in respect of enabling some Conservative Members to have the chance to press their motions to a vote. Let him answer that part of the debate instead of giving us that which he has prepared so carefully beforehand.

Mr. St. John-Stevas

The right hon. Gentleman is very skilled at seeking to distract attention from his own inconsistencies. The principal point of his argument has been that this is yet another different occasion. He implies that this is a very special occasion and that the guillotine should be resisted.

I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman's remarks have not been dictated by any intellectual consistency. Emerson said that consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds". Nothing as demanding as intellectual vigour has determined the attitude of the right hon. Gentleman. Something much more comfortable than that has determined his attitude, namely, the side of the Chamber that he happens to be sitting on.

In fairness, I shall briefly turn to the right hon. Gentleman's understudy—the hon. Member for Bedwellty. We are assured by the press that he is the contemporary and up-to-date version of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale. He has been described by one newspaper as a "carbon copy" of the right hon. Gentleman. That is largely a matter of taste. Personally I prefer the original. However, history does not repeat itself. If history did repeat itself, the right person to quote would be Karl Marx. He declared that, if history repeats itself, it is first as a tragedy and then as a farce.

Under the generalship of the hon. Member for Bedwellty, the Committee proceedings were rapidly reduced to a farce. That constitutes the justification for the guillotine. It is true that he did not do it all by himself. He was helped by several other "copies" who were misled by his leadership. The hon. Member for Lewisham, West (Mr. Price) played his part. The hon. Member for Newham, South (Mr. Spearing) played his part also. They were aided and abetted by other hon. Members, with the result that 82 hours of debate had gone by before the guillotine was suggested. At that time they had got only half-way through a short Bill of fewer than 40 clauses.

I suggest that that was due to the incompetence of the hon. Member for Bedwellty. My hon. Friend the Member for Wokingham puts forward a more sinister interpretation. He says that it was done from intent. Whatever the motivation, the responsibility lies fairly and squarely upon the hon. Gentleman's shoulders.

Mr. Kinnock

As regards matters of responsibility, will the right hon. Gentleman—after all his platitudes about not treating children who attend denominational schools in a discriminatory way—answer a substantive point? Will it still be the case that parents who have not had to find substantial fares for their children to travel to school will now—as a result of the Bill and of the Goverment's action—have to pay £90 to send their children to a primary school and £133 to send their children to secondary schools? For the first time in the debate—[HON. MEMBERS: "Speech".] Will the Leader of the House answer a question instead of putting on a pantomime performance for the distraction of his hon. Friends?

Mr. St. John-Stevas

I have made it plain that discretion will be given to local authorities as to whether they impose charges. Secondly, we have every reason to believe that there will be no discrimination against children who attend denominational schools. That answers fully the point raised by the hon. Member for Bedwellty.

If I may return to the subject matter of the debate, which is the guillotine, the hon. Member for Bedwellty must have known that his Government imposed guillotines on Bills of equal importance after a shorter period of time. Therefore, he knew that the amount of time was limited. He also knows that at least 12 hours were spent in Committee on points of order and related sittings motions, all of which time could have been devoted to the substance of the Bill.

He knows, too, that he spoke at inordinate length. He told us tonight that he is fond of his own voice. That is a minority taste, but he is perfectly entitled to his view, although it is apparently not shared by his right hon. Friend the Member for Norwich, North (Mr. Ennals), who rose and ruined him in the middle of his peroration. It is the best example of a perforated peroration that I have ever seen. I congratulate the hon. Gentleman on his resilience. He came up from beneath the wave with yet another peroration between his teeth.

The Opposition must bear a share of the responsibility for their total lack of proportion—their obsession with the assisted places scheme.

I have listened to the entire debate. No case has been made out in principle or practice for voting against the motion. I admire to some extent the appearance of the right hon. Member for Ebbw Vale at the Dispatch Box to oppose the guillotine. I do not know which to admire most, his courage or his gall. At any rate, on guillotines he speaks with authority. It is advice from an expert. It was the right hon. Gentleman who walked away with the supreme challenge cup—a record unequalled by any other Leader of the House before or since: five guillotines on a single day in July 1976. That

Division No. 147] AYES [10.15 pm.
Adley, Robert Cranborne, Viscount Hayhoe, Barney
Altken, Jonathan Critchley, Julian Heddle, John
Alexander, Richard Crouch, David Henderson, Barry
Alison, Michael Dean, Paul (North Somerset) Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Dickens, Geoffrey Hicks, Robert
Ancram, Michael Dorrell, Stephen Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L.
Arnold, Tom Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Aspinwall, Jack Dover, Denshore Holland, Philip (Carlton)
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) du Cann, Rt Kon Edward Hooson, Tom
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Hordern, Peter
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Durant, Tony Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Dykes, Hugh Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford)
Bell, Sir Ronald Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk)
Bendall, Vivian Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) Hunt, David (Wirral)
Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) Eggar, Timothy Hunt, John (Ravensbourne)
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Elliott, Sir William Hurd, Hon Douglas
Best, Keith Emery, Peter Irving, Charles (Cheltenham)
Bevan, David Gilroy Eyre, Reginald Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick
Biffen, Rt Hon John Fairbairn, Nicholas Johnson Smith, Geoffrey
Biggs-Davison, John Fairgrieve, Russell Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Blackburn, John Faith, Mrs Sheila Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith
Blaker, Peter Farr, John Kaberry, Sir Donald
Body, Richard Fell, Anthony Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Fenner, Mrs Peggy King, Rt Hon Tom
Boscawen, Hon Robert Finsberg, Geoffrey Knox, David
Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) Fisher, Sir Nigel Lamont, Norman
Bowden, Andrew Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) Lang, Ian
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Langford-Holt, Sir John
Braine, Sir Bernard Fookes, Miss Janet Latham, Michael
Bright, Graham Forman, Nigel Lawrence, Ivan
Brinton, Tim Fowler, Rt Hon Norman Lawson, Nigel
Brittan, Leon Fox, Marcus Lee, John
Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Brooke, Hon Peter Fraser, Peter (South Angus) Lester, Jim (Beston)
Brotherton, Michael Fry, Peter Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland)
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo)
Browne, John (Winchester) Gardiner, George (Reigate) Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Bruce-Gardyne, John Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) Loveridge, John
Bryan, Sir Paul Garel-Jones, Tristan Luce, Richard
Buck, Antony Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian Lyell, Nicholas
Budgen, Nick Glyn, Dr Alan McCrindle, Robert
Bulmer, Esmond Goodhart, Philip Macfarlane, Neil
Burden, F. A. Goodhew, Victor MacGregor, John
Butcher, John Goodlad, Alastair MacKay, John (Argyll)
Butler, Hon Adam Gorst, John McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Cadbury, Jocelyn Gow, Ian McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest)
Carlisle, John (Luton West) Gower, Sir Raymond McQuarrie, Albert
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Gray, Hamish Madel, David
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) Greenway, Harry Major, John
Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) Marland, Paul
Channon, Paul Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Marlow, Tony
Chapman, Sydney Grist, Ian Marshall, Michael (Arundel)
Churchill, W. S. Grylls, Michael Marten, Neil (Banbury)
Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Gummer, John Selwyn Mates, Michael
Clark, Sir William (Croydon South) Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm & Ew'll) Mather, Carol
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mawby, Ray
Cockeram, Eric Hampson, Dr Keith Mawhinney, Dr Brian
Colvin, Michael Hannam, John Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin
Cope, John Haselhurst, Alan Mayhew, Patrick
Cormack, Patrick Hastings, Stephen Mellor, David
Corrie, John Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael Meyer, Sir Anthony
Costain, A. P. Hawksley, Warren Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch)

is the record of the right hon. Gentleman.

Right hon. and hon. crocodiles—

It being three hours after the commencement of proceedings on the motion, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded to put the Question necessary to dispose of them, pursuant to Standing Order No. 44 (Allocation of time to Bills).

Question put accordingly: —

The House divided: Ayes 304, Noes 255.

Mills, Iain (Meriden) Pym, Rt Hon Francis Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW)
Mills, Peter (West Devon) Raison, Timothy Tebbit, Norman
Miscampbell, Norman Rathbone, Tim Temple-Morris, Peter
Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)
Moate, Roger Rees-Davies, W. R. Thompson, Donald
Monro, Hector Renton, Tim Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Montgomery, Fergus Rhodes James, Robert Thornton, Malcolm
Moore, John Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon Townend, John (Bridlington)
Morgan, Geraint Ridley, Hon Nicholas Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) Ridsdale, Julian Trippier, David
Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) Rifkind, Malcolm Trotter, Neville
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester Roberts, Wyn (Conway) van Straubenzee, W. R.
Mudd, David Rost, Peter Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Murphy, Christopher Royle, Sir Anthony Viggers, Peter
Myles, David Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Waddington, David
Neale, Gerrard St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Norman Wakeham, John
Needham, Richard Scott, Nicholas Waldegrave, Hon William
Nelson, Anthony Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) Walker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester)
Neubert, Michael Shelton, William (Streatham) Walker, Bill (Perth & E Perthshire)
Newton, Tony Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Walker-Smith, Rt Hon sir Derek.
Normanton, Tom Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills) Waller, Gary
Onslow, Cranley Shersby, Michael Walters, Dennis
Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally Silvester, Fred Ward, John
Page, John (Harrow, West) Sims, Roger Warren Kenneth
Page, Rt Hon Sir R. Graham Skeet, T. H. H. Watson John
Page, Richard (SW Hertfordshire) Speed, keith Wells, John (Maidstone)
Parkinson, Cecil Speller, Tony Wells, Bowen Hert'rd & Stev'nage)
Parris, Matthew Spence, John Wheeler, John
Patten, Christopher (Bath) Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) Whitelaw Rt Hon William
Patten, John (Oxford) Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) Whitney, Raymond
Pattie, Geoffrey Sproat, Iain Wickenden, Keith
Pawsey, James Squire, Robin Wiggin, Jerry
Percival, Sir Ian Stanbrook, Ivor Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Peyton, Rt Hon John Stanley, John Wolfson, Mark
Pink, R. Bonner Steen, Anthony Young, Sir George (Acton)
Pollock, Alexander Stevens, Martin Younger, Rt Hon George
Porter, George Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Prentice, Rt Hon Reg Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Price, David (Eastleigh) Stokes, John Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and
(Prior, Rt Hon James Stradling Thomas, J. Mr. Anthony Berry.
Proctor, K. Harvey Tapsell, Peter
Abse, Leo Cowans, Harry Foulkes, George
Adams, Allen Crowther, J. S. Fraser, John (Lambeth Norwood)
Allaun, Frank Cryer, Bob Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald
Alton, David Cunliffe, Lawrence Freud, Clement
Anderson, Donald Cunningham, George (Islington S) Garrett, John (Norwich S)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend)
Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest Dalyell, Tam George, Bruce
Ashley, Rt Hon Jack Davidson, Arthur Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John
Ashton, Joe Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Glnsburg, David
Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) Davies, Ifor (Gower) Golding, John
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Davis, Clinton, (Hackney Central) Gourlay, Harry
Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) Graham, Ted
Beith, A. J. Deakins, Eric Grant, George (Morpeth)
Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Grant, John (Islington C)
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Dempsey, James Grimond, Rt Hon J.
Bidwell, Sydney Dewar, Donald Hamilton, James (Bothwell)
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Dixon, Donald Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife)
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Dobson, Frank Harrison, Rt Hon Walter
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur(M'brough) Dormand, Jack Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith
Bradley, Tom Douglas, Dick Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy
Bray, Dr Jeremy Douglas-Mann, Bruce Haynes, Frank
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Dubs, Alfred Healey, Rt Hon Denis
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Dunnett, Jack Heffer, Eric S.
Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire)
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) Eadle, Alex Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall)
Buchan, Norman Eastham, Ken Home Robertson, john
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) Homewood, William
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) Hooley, Frank
Campbell, Ian Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) Horam John
Campbell-Savours, Dale English, Michael Howell, Rt Hon Denis(B'ham, Sm H)
Canavan, Dennis Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Howells, Geraint
Cant, R. B. Evans, John (Newton) Huckfield, Les
Carmichael, Nell Ewing, Harry Hudson Davies Gwilym Ednyfed
Carter-Jones, Lewis Field, Frank Hughes, Mark(Durham)
Cartwright, John Fitch, Alan Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North)
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Fitt, Gerard Hughes, Roy (Newport)
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Flannery, Martin Janner, Hon Greville
Cohen, Stanley Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Jay, Rt Hon Douglas
Coleman, Donald Foot, Rt Hon Michael John, Brynmor
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Forrester, John Johnson, Walter (Derby South)
Conlan, Bernard Foster, Derek Johnston, Russell (Inverness)
Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda) Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) Silverman, Julius
Jones, Barry (East Flint) Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) Smith, Cyril (Rochdale)
Jones, Dan (Burnley) Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)
Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Newens, Stanley Snape, Peter
Kerr, Russell Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon Soley, Clive
Kilroy-Silk, Robert Ogden, Eric Spearing, Nigel
Kinnock, Neil O'Halloran, Michael Spriggs, Leslie
Lambie, David O'Neill, Martin Stallard, A. W.
Lamborn, Harry Orme, Rt Hon Stanley Steel, Rt Hon David
Lamond, James Owen, Rt Hon Dr David Stoddart, David
Leadbitter, Ted Palmer, Arthur Stott, Roger
Leighton, Ronald Park, George Strang, Gavin
Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) Parker, John Straw, Jack
Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Parry, Robert Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley
Litherland, Robert Pavitt, Laurie Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Lofthouse, Geoffrey Pendry, Tom Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Lyon, Alexander (York) Penhaligon, David Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down) Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen)
Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
McCusker, H. Prescott, John Tilley, John
McDonald, Dr Oonagh Price, Christopher (Lewisham West) Tinn, James
McElhone, Frank Race, Reg Torney, Tom
McKay, Allan (Penistone) Radice, Giles Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
McKelvey, William Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South) Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Richardson, Jo Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley)
Maclennan, Robert Roberts, Albert (Normanton) Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster)
McMahon, Andrew Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North) Weetch, Ken
McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) Wellbeloved, James
McNally, Thomas Robertson, George Welsh, Michael
McWilliam, John Robinson, Geoffrey (Coventry NW) White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)
Magee, Bryan Rodgers, Rt Hon William White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) Rooker, J. W. Whitlock, William
Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn) Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Mason, Rt Hon Roy Rowlands, Ted Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Maynard, Miss Joan Ryman, John Wilson, William (Coventry, SE)
Meacher, Michael Sandelson, Neville Winnick, David
Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Sever, John Woodall, Alec
Mikardo, Ian Sheerman, Barry Woolmer, Kenneth
Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L) Wrigglesworth, Ian
Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop) Young, David (Bolton East)
Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Short, Mrs Renée TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Molyneaux, James Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) Mr George Morton and
Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) Mr. Hugh McCartney.

Question agreed to.

Ordered, That the following provisions shall apply to the remaining Proceedings on the Bill:


1.—(1) Subject to sub-paragraph (2) below, the Standing Committee to which the Bill is allocated shall report the Bill to the House on or before 4 February 1980. (2) Proceedings on the Bill at a sitting of the Standing Committee on the said 4 February may continue until 11 pm whether or not the House is adjourned before that time and if the House is adjourned before those proceedings have been brought to a conclusion the Standing Committee shall report the Bill to the House on 5 February 1980.

Report and Third Reading

2.—(1) The Proceedings on Consideration and Third Reading of the Bill shall be completed in two allotted days and shall be brought to a conclusion two hours after Ten o'clock on the second of those days; and for the purposes of Standing Order No. 43 (Business Committee) this Order shall be taken to allot to the Proceedings on Consideration such part of those days as the Resolution of the Business Committee may determine. (2) The Business Committee shall report to the House their resolutions as to the Proceed- ings on Consideration of the Bill, and as to the allocation of time between those Proceedings and Proceedings on Third Reading, not later than the fourth day on which the House sits after the day on which the Chairman of the Standing Committee reports the Bill to the House. (3) The resolutions in any report made under Standing Order No. 43 may be varied by a further report so made, whether or not within the time specified in sub-paragraph (2) above, and whether or not the resolutions have been agreed to by the House. (4) The resolutions of the Business Committee may include alterations in the order in which proceedings on Consideration of the Bill are taken.

Procedure in Standing Committee

3.—(1) At a Sitting of the Standing Committee at which any Proceedings on the Bill are to be brought to a conclusion under a Resolution of the Business Sub-Committee the Chairman shall not adjourn the Committee under any Order relating to the sittings of the Committee until the Proceedings have been brought to a conclusion. (2) No Motion shall be moved in the Standing Committee relating to the sitting of the Committee except by a Member of the Government, and the Chairman shall permit a brief explanatory statement from the Member who moves, and from a Member who opposes, the Motion, and shall then put the Question thereon. 4. No Motion shall be moved to postpone any Clause, Schedule, new Clause or new Schedule but the resolutions of the Business Sub-Committee may include alterations in the order in which Clauses, Schedules, new Clauses and new Schedules are to be taken in the Standing Committee.

Conclusion of Proceedings in Committee

5. On the conclusion of the Proceedings in any Committee on the Bill the Chairman shall report the Bill to the House without putting any Question.

Dilatory motions

6. No dilatory Motion with respect to, or in the course of, Proceedings on the Bill shall be moved in the Standing Committee or on an allotted day except by a Member of the Government, and the Question on any such Motion shall be put forthwith.

Extra time on allotted days

7.—(1) On an allotted day paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the Proceedings on the Bill for two hours after Ten o'clock. (2) Any period during which Proceedings on the Bill may be proceeded with after Ten o'clock under paragraph (7) of Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration) shall be in addition to the said period of two hours. (3) If an allotted day is one to which a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 stands over from an earlier day, a period of time equal to the duration of the Proceedings upon that Motion shall be added to the said period of two hours.

Private business

8. Any private business which has been set down for consideration at Seven o'clock on an allotted day shall, instead of being considered as provided by Standing Orders, be considered at the conclusion of the Proceedings on the Bill on that day, and paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the private business for a period of three hours from the conclusion of the Proceedings on the Bill or, if those Proceedings are concluded before Ten o'clock, for a period equal to the time elapsing between Seven o'clock and the conclusion of those Proceedings.

Conclusion of Proceedings

9.—(1) For the purpose of bringing to a conclusion any Proceedings which are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by this Order or a Resolution of the Business Committee or the Business Sub-Committee and which have not previously been brought to a conclusion, the Chairman or Mr. Speaker shall forthwith put the following Questions (but no others), that is to say—

  1. (a) any Question already proposed from the Chair:
  2. 1280
  3. (b)any Question necessary to bring to a decision a Question so proposed (including in the case of a new Clause or new Schedule which has been read a second time, the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill);
  4. (c) the Question on any amendment or Motion standing on the Order Paper in the name of any Member, if that amendment or Motion is moved by a Member of the Government;
  5. (d) any other Question necessary for the disposal of the business to be concluded;
and on a Motion so moved for a new Clause or a new Schedule, the Chairman or Mr. Speaker shall put only the Question that the Clause or Schedule be added to the Bill.

(2) Proceedings under sub-paragraph (1) above shall not be interrupted under any Standing Order relating to the sittings of the House.

(3) If an allotted day is one on which a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 (Adjournment on specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration) would, apart from this Order, stand over to Seven o'clock—

  1. (a) that Motion shall stand over until the conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order or a resolution of the Business Committee, are to be brought to a conclusion at or before that time;
  2. (b) the bringing to a conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order or a Resolution of the Business Committee, are to be brought to a conclusion after that time shall be postponed for a period equal to the duration of the Proceedings on that Motion.

(4) If an allotted day is one to which a Motion for the adjournment of the House under Standing Order No. 9 stands over from an earlier day, the bringing to a conclusion of any Proceedings on the Bill which, under this Order or a Resolution of the Business Committee, are to be brought to a conclusion on that day shall be postponed for a period equal to the duration of the Proceedings on that Motion.

Supplemental orders

10.—(1) The Proceedings on any Motion moved in the House by a Member of the Government for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order (including anything which might have been the subject of a report of the Business Committee or Business Sub-Committee) shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion one hour after they have been commenced, and paragraph (1) of Standing Order No. 3 (Exempted business) shall apply to the Proceedings. (2) If on an allotted day on which any Proceedings on the Bill are to be brought to a conclusion at a time appointed by this Order or a Resolution of the Business Committee the House is adjourned, or the sitting is suspended, before that time no notice shall be required of a Motion moved at the next sitting by a Member of the Government for varying or supplementing the provisions of this Order.


11. Nothing in this Order or a Resolution of the Business Committee or Business Sub-Committee shall—

  1. (a) prevent any Proceedings to which the Order or Resolution applies from being taken or completed earlier than is required by the Order or Resolution, or
  2. (b) prevent any business (whether on the Bill or not) from being proceeded with on any day after the completion of all such Proceedings on the Bill as are to be taken on that day.


12.—(1) References in this Order to Proceedings on Consideration or Proceedings on Third Reading include references to Proceedings, at those stages respectively, for, on or in consequence of, re-committal. (2) On an allotted day no debate shall be permitted on any Motion to re-commit the Bill (whether as a whole or otherwise), and Mr. Speaker shall put forthwith any Question necessary to dispose of the Motion, including the Question on any amendment moved to the Question.


13. In this Order— allotted day" means any day (other than a Friday) on which the Bill is put down as the first Government Order of the Day provided that a Motion for allotting time to the Proceedings on the Bill to be taken on that day either has been agreed on a previous day, or is set down for consideration on that day; the Bill" means the Education (No. 2) Bill; "Resolution of the Business Sub-Committee" means a Resolution of the Business Sub-Committee as agreed to by the Standing Committee; Resolution of the Business Committee" means a Resolution of the Business Committee as agreed to by the House.