HC Deb 28 February 1980 vol 979 cc1577-9
Mr. English

I beg to ask leave to move the Adjournment of the House, under Standing Order No. 9, for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely, the actions taken by the Secretary of State for Social Services and persons acting under him during the period in which the administration of the Lambeth, Southwark and Lewisham area health authority was being conducted illegally". You will be aware, Mr. Speaker, of the precedent that I have notified to you privately that is the nearest in point to this case. In July of the 1943–44 Session the then Herbert Morrison, having created a national fire service illegally, came to the House on a Wednesday and made a statement confessing his mistake, as did the right hon. Gentleman in this case. Two days later, Mr. Morrison laid a Bill of indemnity covering himself and all the persons who had acted illegally in accordance with his instructions. In a very short time the Bill was passed through both Houses of Parliament, thus rectifying the situation.

You will be aware, Mr. Speaker, that paragraph (4) of the Standing Order states: In determining whether a matter is urgent Mr. Speaker shall have regard to the probability of the matter being brought before the House in time by other means. Like you, Mr. Speaker, I had assumed that this precedent would have been followed.

It is now two days since the right hon. Gentleman's statement. However, it seems clear from that statement that the right hon. Gentleman's Department was as incapable of realising that this precedent existed as it was incapable of advising him correctly as to the law. Therefore, I suggest that, two days having elapsed, the precedent having been broken and no Bill of indemnity having been laid, we have the impossible situation that two hospitals were illegally closed and that the people who were working there are no longer working there. That is due to illegal orders having been given. They do not know whether they should, in order to comply with the law, go back to their former employment.

There is no question but that there could be actions for civil damages and it is possible that criminal offences have been committed. The only way in which this situation can properly be corrected is by an Act of Parliament, which was the solution adopted on the previous occasion. The first sentence of para. (4) of the Standing Order states: In determining whether a matter is proper to be discussed Mr. Speaker shall have regard to the extent to which it concerns the administrative responsibilities of Ministers of the Crown. What could concern us more than that a court has determined that the Secretary of State has acted illegally? The position is now totally in limbo until it is corrected by this House.

Mr. Speaker

The hon. Member for Nottingham, West (Mr. English) gave me notice before 12 o'clock of his desire to make an application under Standing Order No. 9—though in different language from that which he read out to the House. That being the case, I will be pleased to have a copy of his remarks.

The hon. Member asks leave to move the Adjournment of the House for the purpose of discussing a specific and important matter that he thinks should have urgent consideration, namely, the actions taken by the Secretary of State for Social Services and persons acting under him during the period in which the administration of the Lambeth, Southwark and Lewisham area health authority was being conducted illegally". First, the hon. Gentleman was quite wrong to allege that I had said that I was expecting a statement. It was quite wrong to say that. I never expect anything other than which turns up.

The hon. Gentleman has raised an important question, to which obviously the whole House has listened with concern. I am expected, and instructed by the House, to take into account the several factors set out in the Order—to some of which the hon. Gentleman referred. But the House has specifically asked me not to give reasons for my decision.

I have given careful consideration to the representations of the hon. Gentleman, but I have to rule that they do not fall within the provisions of the Standing Order and, therefore, I cannot submit his application to the House.