HC Deb 28 February 1980 vol 979 cc1546-8
6. Mr. Straw

asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department when he expects to meet representatives of the Association of Chief Police Officers.

Mr. Whitelaw

I met the president and representatives of the association on 20 February. I have no immediate plans for another meeting, but I frequently have occasion to meet individual chief officers.

Mr. Straw

Does the right hon. Gentleman agree with the chief constables, who yesterday told the employment Select Committee that they consider that the scope of the existing law on picketing is adequate?

Mr. Whitelaw

The chief constables are totally independent, and I think that I must leave them to speak for themselves. If I start to comment on what they say to Select Committees I shall be in trouble with the chief constables and with the Select Committees. I think that that would be unwise.

Mr. Marlow

The next time that my right hon. Friend meets the chief police officers, will he tell them that the enforcement of law is as important as public order, as opposed to a statement attributed to a police officer yesterday that first he had to have public order and then, if he could do so, he would enforce the law? They are as important as each other.

Mr. Whitelaw

I accept what my hon. Friend says. However, in recent months the police have had to face difficult problems in difficult situations. The House should be extremely grateful to the chief officers of police, and to all those in the various forces concerned, for the way in which they have been determined impartially to uphold the law.

Mr. Meacher

Bearing in mind the close association, nationwide, which Home Office reports indicate between a large number of complaints against the police alleging assault in different police areas per 10,000 arrests and the number of deaths in custody, and bearing in mind that of the 26 complaints to the Director of Public Prosecutions following deaths in custody, in 20 cases the complaint was assault causing death or police maltreatment, does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the Home Office evidence shows clearly that police maltreatment is at least one factor, among others, in deaths in custody, and as such there is a need for a full public inquiry to establish all the causes and remedies?

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not wish to take refuge behind the Select Committee, but, it is conducting an inquiry into deaths in police custody. I think that the hon. Gentleman will agree that I have responded Cully to many of his questions. I shall write to him again. I do not think that I can accept all of his statistics, because I am not quick enough on my feet to take into account all the implications of all the figures that he has given to me. Nevertheless, we should await the report of the Select Committee on the matter which he is pursuing.

Mr. Mellor

I accept what my right hon. Friend has said about the difficulties faced by chief constables in maintaining law and order on the picket lines, but is it not a fact that if—as appears to be the case from the pronouncements of certain chief constables—they do not intend to enforce the criminal law as rigorously on the picket lines as they do in disturbances in public houses or outside football grounds, it becomes difficult to resist the public argument that there should be a new law on picketing?

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not think that I obtained that interpretation from the evidence given by chief constables. It is for them to speak for themselves. I wish to rest on what I said to my hon. Friend the Member for Northampton, North (Mr. Marlow), that in a difficult position each chief constable must judge the best way in which he can deal with the matter in the interests of the public and of society as a whole. In making those judgments, the chief constables deserve considerable gratitude from the House.

Mr. George Cunningham

Does the Secretary of State recollect that on Monday of this week the Attorney-General told the House that in June of last year, through the Association of Chief Police Officers, the Home Office was assured that the guidelines on jury vetting were being adhered to in all police forces? Is it the practice of the Home Office, when it is aware that there is doubt about such a fact in one police force, to make its inquiries and accept assurances through the ACPO rather than to deal direct with the police force concerned? Will the Secretary of State tell us what is happening about the flagrant breach by the Northamptonshire police of the guidelines on jury vetting?

Mr. Whitelaw

My right hon. and learned Friend the Attorney-General is is considering the matter, and he mentioned it on Monday. As the hon. Gentleman knows, it is normally the case that the Home Office deals with the Association of Chief Police Officers on these matters. We have its assurance. I realise that there has been a mistake, and I am personally looking into the matter.