§ Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
§ 5 am
§ Mr. RookerWe wish only to ask about the order-making powers in subsection (4B). Is it right that there is no mechanism for changing the figures of 0.1, 4 and 0.2 per cent by order? If it is desired to change them, will it require primary legislation? Are the figures cumulative if used under subsection (4A)? In other words could the figure be 0.1 per cent. one year and change the following year?
§ The Under-secretary of State for Health and Social Security (Sir George Young)The answer to the hon. Gentleman's second question is "Yes", the figures could be used cumulatively. We have made no decision on the rate of contribution for any years after 1981–82, so we cannot say in what circumstances the powers in clause 3(3) will be used. The subsection merely corrects an anomaly in section 122 of the principal Act. At the moment, one can only vary the NHS contributions as a consequence of changes in the national insurance contribution rates and 1234 limits. The purpose of the power is simply to provide flexibility to change the NHS contributions independently of the national insurance contribution rates.
§ Mr. CryerCan the Minister confirm that the power to carry out the alterations which is contained in clause 4(5) will be by an affirmative order? I understand that that brings into operation part of the principal legislation which requires that any changes will be by affirmative order and not by negative procedure.
§ Sir George YoungI confirm that that is the case.
§ Mr. RaceWill the Minister answer the question raised by my hon. Friend the Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) about whether the 0.1 per cent, could be changed by order to 0.2 per cent., or 0.3 per cent. or whatever? Can this be done by affirmative order, as mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer), or will it need primary legislation.
§ Sir George YoungOne can change the figure by 0.1 per cent, by order. If one wants to change it by more than 0.1 per cent., it will need legislation.
§ Question put, That the clause stand part of the Bill:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 193, Noes 16.
| Division No. 29] | [5.04 am |
| AYES | |
| Alexander, Richard | Eyre, Reginald |
| Atkinson, David (B'm'th,E) | Faith, Mrs Sheila |
| Baker, Nicholas (N Dorset) | Farr, John |
| Banks, Robert | Fell, Anthony |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fenner, Mrs Peggy |
| Benyon, Thomas (A'don) | Forman, Nigel |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Best, Keith | Gardner, Edward (S Fylde) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Garel-Jones, Tristan |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Goodhart, Philip |
| Blackburn, John | Gorst, John |
| Blaker, Peter | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Greenway, Harry |
| Bottomley, Peter (W'wich W) | Grieve, Percy |
| Bowden, Andrew | Griffiths, E.(B'y St. Edm'ds) |
| Bright, Graham | Griffiths, Peter Portsm'th N) |
| Brinton, Tim | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Brittan, Leon | Hamilton, Hon A. |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Brotherton, Michael | Hannam, John |
| Brown, M.(Brigg and Scun) | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Hastings, Stephen |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Hawkins, Paul |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Hawksley, Warren |
| Buck, Antony | Heddle, John |
| Budgen, Nick | Henderson, Barry |
| Butcher, John | Hooson, Tom |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Howell, Ralph (N Norfolk) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Channon, Rt. Hon. Paul | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick |
| Churchill, W. S. | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey |
| Clark, Hon A. (Plym'th, S'n) | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Kershaw, Anthony |
| Colvin, Michael | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Cope, John | Lamont, Norman |
| Corrie, John | Lang, Ian |
| Costain, Sir Albert | Latham, Michael |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Crouch, David | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Lester Jim (Beeston) |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Dorrell, Stephen | Loveridge, John |
| Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Luce, Richard |
| Durant, Tony | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Eggar, Tim | McCrindle, Robert |
| Elliott, Sir William | MacGregor, John |
| Emery, Peter | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| McNair-Wilson, P. (New F'st) | Shepherd, Richard |
| McQuarrie, Albert | Shersby, Michael |
| Madel, David | Silvester, Fred |
| Major, John | Sims, Roger |
| Marland, Paul | Smith, Dudley |
| Mates, Michael | Speller, Tony |
| Mather, Carol | Spence, John |
| Maude, Rt Hon Angus | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Sproat, Ian |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Squire, Robin |
| Mellor, David | Stainton, Keith |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| Miller, Hal (B'grove) | Stevens, Martin |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Stokes, John |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Moate, Roger | Tapsell, Peter |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Taylor, Teddy (S'end E) |
| Moore, John | Tebbit, Norman |
| Morrison, Hon C. (Devizes) | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter |
| Morrison, Hon P. (Chester) | Thompson, Donald |
| Myles, David | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Neale, Gerrard | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Needham, Richard | Townsend, Cyril D, (B'heath) |
| Nelson, Anthony | Trippier, David |
| Neubert, Michael | Trotter, Neville |
| Newton, Tony | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Normanton, Tom | Viggers, Peter |
| Onslow, Cranley | Waddington, David |
| Osborn, John | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Page, Rt Hon Sir G. (Crosby) | Walker, B. (Perth ) |
| Page, Richard (SW Herts) | Wall, Patrick |
| Parris, Matthew | Waller, Gary |
| Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Ward, John |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Warren, Kenneth |
| Pawsey, James | Watson, John |
| Pink, R. Bonner | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Pollock, Alexander | Wells, Bowen |
| Price, Sir David (Eastleigh) | Wheeler, John |
| Proctor, K. Harvey | Whitney, Raymond |
| Raison, Timothy | Wickenden, Keith |
| Rathbone, Tim | Wilkinson, John |
| Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Renton, Tim | Wolfson, Mark |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Ridsdale, Julian | |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Tellers for the Ayes: |
| St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon N. | Lord James Douglas- |
| Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Hamilton and |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Mr. John Wakeham. |
| NOES | |
| Bennett, Andrew (St'kp't N) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Buchan, Norman | Race, Reg |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Rooker, J. W. |
| Cocks, Rt Hon M. (B'stol S) | Wainwright, R.(Colne V) |
| Cryer, Bob | Welsh, Michael |
| Davis, T. (B'ham, Stechf'd) | Winnick, David |
| Dobson, Frank | |
| Dormand, Jack | Tellers for the Noes: |
| Field, Frank | Mr. Walter Harrison and |
| Haynes, Frank | Mr. Hugh McCartney. |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.