HC Deb 02 December 1980 vol 995 cc121-4
Q1. Mr. Peter Bottomley

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 2 December.

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. William Whitelaw)

I have been asked to reply.

My right hon. Friend is taking part in the meeting of the European Council in Luxembourg.

Mr. Bottomley

Does my right hon. Friend agree that those of us who dislike nuclear weapons would be better advised to support multilateral disarmament negotiations, rather than unilateral disarmament, and that perhaps Britain should support the United Nations Association rather than the CND? Is it not better to be like the sheep that says that he will not support vegetarianism because the wolf will not agree to do so as well?

Mr. Whitelaw

As my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Defence have consistently made clear, we believe that our part in multilateral disarmament is correct and that unilateral disarmament would do grave damage to the peace of the world.

Mr. Foot

May I take the earliest possible opportunity to congratulate the right hon. Gentleman on the settlement of the firemen's dispute? At least we can say that this is one election pledge that the Government have carried out. May we have some indication from the Government whether they are prepared to put their money where their election pledge was?

Mr. Whitelaw

I am always grateful to the right hon. Gentleman, or anyone else, for small mercies. As I understand it the local authority employers, who were negotiating in this case, appreciated the Government's 6 per cent. overall cash limit on the rate support grant. Notwithstanding that position, they have decided to put forward proposals to the Fire Brigades Union, which I understand that union is now considering.

Mr. Foot

In view of the clear-cut promises that the right hon. Gentleman, among others, made during the election campaign—he made no restrictions then about cash limits or anything else—does he agree that the Government should provide at last some of the money to secure this settlement?

Mr. Whitelaw

The Government have made it clear that the cash limit of 6 per cent. overall on the rate support grant will staid. Within that proposal, I understand that the local authority employers have decided to seek to honour the agreement, and that is now being considered by the Fire Brigades Union.

Q2. Mr. Tilley

asked the Prime Minister whether she will list her official engagements for 2 December.

Mr. Whitelaw

I have been asked to reply.

I refer the hon. Gentleman to the reply which I have just given.

Mr. Tilley

Why does not the Home Secretary not congratulate the fire brigade authorities on keeping the promise that they gave? Will he now confirm that the Government's rather underhanded pay policy of trying to pick off groups of public sector workers one by one went up in flames last night? Will he explain to the House and the country how any group of workers can in future accept the word of honour of a Tory Minister?

Mr. Whitelaw

I think that I should make it clear that the position of the fire brigade employers, with the specific agreement that they had, is somewhat different from other negotiations that will be conducted on the basis of the Government's 6 per cent. overall cash limit.

Mr. Stokes

In view of the settlement of the firemen's dispute and the award of an 18 per cent. pay increase, do we understand that that will be paid for by a reduction in the number of firemen?

Mr. Whitelaw

That is a matter for the individual fire authorities. It is important for the House to appreciate the correct position. Any individual fire authority that seeks to make a reduction in fire cover has to make an application to me as Home Secretary. Then, with the Chief Inspector of Fire Services, I have to consider whether such a reduction is appropriate. In the past 18 months, 19 authorities have made applications, of which 18 have been granted in full.

Mr. Marks

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there will be particular problems for metropolitan counties in the fire brigades decision, since, apart from administrative staff, their only other employees are police and waste disposal workers? Which of those workers will have to take a reduction in their pay increase to allow for the 18 per cent.?

Mr. Whitelaw

That is for the authorities concerned.

Mr. Lawrence

Is my right hon. Friend aware that on no fewer than three occasions this term members of the students' union at Sussex university have physically attacked visiting Conservative speakers? Is it surprising that the new generation of Left-wingers behave in that deplorable way to stifle free speech, when they have the example of Labour Members?

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not believe that any hon. Member in any part of the House would countenance those who try to deny free speech to anyone, no matter how much he may dislike their views.

Mr. Robert Hughes

In the absence of his right hon. Friend the Prime Minister, did the right hon. Gentleman videotape "World in Action" last night, which showed how the Rossminster Group set up bogus companies and bogus transactions to set up tax avoidance schemes? Does he accept that such schemes cost the country hundreds of millions of pounds, which could help, for instance, to meet the firemen's claim? Did the right hon. Gentleman take particular note of the part played by the hon. and learned Member for Dover and Deal (Mr. Rees)? Does his continued retention in the Government have something to do with the old saying about setting a thief to catch a thief?

Mr. Whitelaw

I did not see the programme. I am not in the habit of videotaping programmes for myself. I am therefore not prepared to comment on unfounded allegations of a most serious order.

Later—

Mr. Latham

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I raise this matter with some diffidence, but I think that there was a word used during the Question Time on which you ought to rule. The word used by an hon. Member was "thief, when he talked about setting a thief to catch a thief. He was referring clearly to an hon. and learned Member. I believe that you should rule on that, Mr. Deputy Speaker.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

I also heard the word, but I did not think that the hon. Member was referring to an individual Member. Had he done so, I would have ruled it out of order.

Mr. Winnick

Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Since very serious allegations were made in a television programme about the activities of two Members who are now Ministers in a company that specialised in tax evasion, should not the Ministers concerned come to this House and make a statement? The matter will not simply go away.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

That is not a point of order.

Sir Frederick Burden

Further to the point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. Is it not clear, from the intervention that has just been made, that the word "thief was in fact a reference to the—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. At Prime Minister's Questions necessarily there is a good deal of noise. I heard the word, but I did not consider that it was directed at any particular right hon. or hon. Gentleman. I think that we had better leave it at that.

Q3. Miss Joan Lestor

asked the Prime Minister if she will list her official engagements for 2 December.

Mr. Whitelaw

I have been asked to reply.

I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I gave earlier.

Miss Lestor

Bearing in mind the right hon. Gentleman's responsibility and concern for law and order in the country, can he find it in his heart to congratulate the Labour Party on the magnificent peaceful demonstration in Liverpool on Saturday, when 100,000 people marched in protest against the Government's policies? Will he note that his hon. Friends behind him could also do with a few lessons in free speech? Is he aware that thousands of young people took part in the demonstration and that the social unrest and other consequences of large-scale unemployment—

Mr. Deputy Speaker

Order. It is an abuse of Question Time to put very long questions.

Mr. Whitelaw

I find it in my heart to congratulate anyone who manages to avoid violence. I abhor violence in all circumstances and on every occasion. The demonstration involved the Leader of a responsible Opposition, and it would have been bad for our democracy had the demonstration been otherwise. If the Leader of the Opposition wanted to make sure that there were more jobs in Merseyside, perhaps he should have stopped off at Halewood and other places and given lectures in industrial relations, at which he is so good.

Mr. Farr

Will my right hon. Friend have a chance to discuss with the Prime Minister on her return from Luxembourg the desirability of promoting EEC food exports to Poland, where the Communist Government seem to have organised the country into permanent hunger and despair, and where surplus Community foodstuffs could well be chanelled?

Mr. Whitelaw

I understand that the matter was discussed by the Heads of the Community Governments in Luxembourg. My right hon. Friend will make a statement on the results of the meeting tomorrow.

Mr. James Hamilton

Bearing in mind the part played by the right hon. Gentleman with regard to firemen's wages, both before and after the election, and the 6 per cent. limit dictated to local authorities, does he believe that the Government are still preaching a philosphy of free collective bargaining?

Mr. Whitelaw

The Government have made the position clear. We have put in the rate support grant an overall 6 per cent. cash limit for pay. That stands.

Mr. Gummer

Would my right hon. Friend care to contrast the post-election reticence of the Leader of the Opposition on unilateral nuclear disarmament with the strong and proper moral speech of the Archbishop of Canterbury, supporting our retention of a nuclear deterrent?

Mr. Whitelaw

It is not for me to comment on the Leader of the Opposition or the Archbishop of Canterbury. However, during the war I served in the same battalion as the Archbishop of Canterbury. He was a very brave officer indeed.

Mr. Freud

Is the Deputy Prime Minister aware that the 71-year-old chief executive of the disaster-prone nationalised Totalisator Board has just received a redundancy payment of £70,000? In view of the economic situation, is that a good idea?

Mr. Whitelaw

I do not know whether it is a good idea. It is entirely a matter for the chairman of the Tote Board.