HC Deb 06 August 1980 vol 990 cc561-5
Mr. Hattersley

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I understood from the Leader of the House that the Secretary of State for the Environment would make a statement on the progress that he hopes to make and on the changes that he will make to the Housing Bill. It would be convenient to have that statement now.

The Secretary of State for the Environment (Mr. Michael Heseltine)

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The House will be aware that Lords amendments to the Housing Bill are tabled for consideration later today. They will significantly widen the exclusions from the right to buy. Not only will sheltered properties be excluded; in addition, those properties designed or specially adapted for old people will be excluded.

The Government have considered the amendments and have decided to widen the exclusions so that genuine elderly persons' accommodation is excluded. We shall accordingly invite the House—with your permission, Mr. Speaker, and with that of the House—to consider a manuscript amendment to that effect.

Mr. Hattersley

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. Most of us wish to make progress. It would help if the Secretary of State were to state clearly and categorically that the Government will no longer pursue the sale of those properties that are specifically designed for the use of, and occupation by, the elderly. Will he confirm that the will of the House of Lords is to be endorsed, on the Government's advice?

Secondly, will he confirm the statement made by the Leader of the House, namely, that that which applies in England should apply to Scotland? Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that it will apply to Scotland? Will he also confirm that a suitable measure will be brought forward to ensure that this substantial concession applies to Scotland as well as to England?

Mr. Heseltine

I am sure that the whole House will welcome the right hon. Gentleman's support for the views of their Lordships. I shall answer the right hon. Gentleman's second question first. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland has authorised me to say, as regards the Tenants' Rights Etc. (Scotland) Bill, that he will facilitate legislation to make a change along the lines that I have announced, at the earliest convenient moment.

Mr. Skinner

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I do not know why the hon. Gentleman is standing. He is not saying anything. Does he wish to raise a point of order?

Mr. Skinner

Yes, Mr. Speaker. I wish to comment on this very important statement. Concessions have been wrung out of the Government at a very late stage in the Session. I believe that those concessions could well have been improved upon. I hope that the Tory Government—especially Tarzan himself—understands that the House has ways and means of trying to extract such concessions. It is possible to do that without a parliamentary majority. The events of the past 24 hours demonstrate that. I hope that the right hon. Gentleman and his colleagues in the Cabinet understand that if the next Session lasts its full course, similar ventures may take place in order—

Mr. Speaker

Order. The hon. Gentleman has strayed far from the original point of order.

Mr. Heseltine

I warmly support the concept that the rule of law and supremacy of Parliament should be supreme in this country. I am sure that the House will have welcomed the hon. Gentleman's clarification of his position.

Mr. Douglas-Mann

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. For the benefit of my colleagues, I wish to make clear that as chairman of the Back-bench Labour Party environment group I was consulted about this arrangement as were as many other hon. Members as possible in the time. May I ask the Secretary of State through you, Mr. Speaker, whether he will make any concession in relation to houses in rural areas? The Select Committee on the environment wrote to him—

Mr. Speaker

Order. That subject can wait until the debate has commenced. We should not go too far now.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

May I thank the Minister, and more particularly my right hon. and hon. Friends, for forcing this concession out of the Government? No doubt they would also thank the Back Benchers who gave such able support.

Mrs. Kellett-Bowman

I thank the Secretary of State very warmly for this concession, which will mean a great deal to a number of councils, including that of Lancaster.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall call the hon. Member for Berwick and East Lothian (Mr. Home Robertson) and the hon. Member for Blackburn (Mr. Straw) and then I shall call the Minister.

Mr. John Home Robertson

The Secretary of State has just made a statement on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scotland to the effect that a similar amendment will be inserted in the Tenants' Rights Etc. (Scotland) Bill at the earliest possible opportunity. Will he confirm that "the earliest possible opportunity" will be tomorrow, and not a later date?

Mr. Heseltine

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. It is not technically possible to amend the Tenants' Rights Etc. (Scotland) Bill. There is no opportunity to do so within the broad rules of order. However, it would be the intention of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State to seek the earliest opportunity to introduce separate legislation for this purpose. I ask the House to understand that this is the only constitutional way in which we can proceed.

Mr. Straw

Since the Secretary of State for Scotland has a discretion as to when parts of the Tenants' Rights (Scotland) Bill will come into force, will the Secretary of State for the Environment, on behalf of his right hon. Friend, give an undertaking that the "right to buy" provision in Scotland will not come into force until such date as any amending legislation is through the House?

Mr. Heseltine

Obviously, I cannot anticipate the debate that my right hon. Friend will conduct at a later time. I ask the House to pursue these matters with my right hon. Friend.

Mr. Hattersley

Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I accept that the only way in which the Scottish legislation can be amended is by a new instrument, but I think that the House would agree that it would be wholly unreasonable if the Government promised to prohibit, or at least not enforce, the sale of old people's dwellings in Scotland as soon as they had legislative time, but then allowed these dwellings to be sold in large numbers throughout the summer. We need an assurance that the Government's intention will be honoured in the spirit and the letter and that the Secretary of State will not give any authority for the sale of property which will not be compulsorily sold when the new Bill is brought to the House.

Mr. Heseltine

I cannot help the right hon. Member completely but I can help him to the extent that neither of the two Bills dealing with housing and the right to buy comes into effect in the summer. They will not come into effect until two months after they have been enacted.