HC Deb 03 April 1980 vol 982 cc623-5
1. Mr. Dalyell

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether, in view of the fact that the Diplock courts operate in a different way from courts in Scotland and England, he will take steps to grant political status to some of those convicted by them, as he considers appropriate.

The Minister of State, Northern Ireland Office (Mr. Michael Alison)

No, Sir.

Mr. Dalyell

May I thank the Minister, parliamentary colleagues, Northern Ireland Office civil servants and political parties in Northern Ireland for their courtesy and the time that they gave to our recent Labour Party delegation to Northern Ireland? May I quietly ask whether there is a case for different treatment, given that there is no Diplock-type court this side of the water? Does not the present situation simply feed resentment?

Mr. Alison

The different treatment to which the hon. Gentleman refers arises from the impact of terrorism on jury members. There is no good cause, therefore, for the individual terrorist to be treated in a specially favourable way by the court that he has sought to terrorise.

Mr. J. Enoch Powell

When taking any decisions, will the Government bear in mind the impact on prison discipline generally of any concessions and special treatment for prisoners who defy that discipline?

Mr. Alison

We are aware of that, and my right hon. Friend has underlined the extent to which we believe that terrorist acts should be treated as criminal acts, by the recent decision that he has announced in regard to special category prisoners.

Mr. Peter Robinson

Will the Minister take it from me that what is needed in Northern Ireland is a greater deterrent than prison sentencing, rather than a lesser one? In that regard, will he consider looking into the prospect of having mandatory sentences for various terrorist offences?

Mr. Alison

The Court has great flexibility in the matter of sentences, and I have no reason to believe that it does not have enough scope to deal with terrorists acts as the merits and nature of the acts deserve.

Mr. John

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that my hon. Friend the Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell) has long been regarded as a most persistent questioner in Parliament, and this morning he has the distinction of being the earliest questioner in parliamentary history?

Will the hon. Gentleman accept that because there are no juries in Diplock courts, that does not mean that people are denied a fair trial? I reiterate my tribute to the impartiality which the Northern Ireland judiciary show to those accused in their courts. Will the Minister accept that some crimes are too horrible to be excused by any attribution of political motive? Will he therefore concentrate on other areas of the Northern Ireland (Emergency Provisions) Act which are now ripe for amendment?

Mr. Alison

On the last point, we shall certainly consider what the hon. Gentleman said. As he knows, the renewal of the Act is a regular cyclical process. We shall consider all representations that are made.

I fully endorse the hon. Gentleman's remarks about the integrity and fairness of the judicial processes. The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), who raised the question, will know that the Diplock courts, without a jury, afford the defendant a special access to the Court of Appeal which is not normal in other respects.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I shall call one more hon. Member from each side.

Mr. Molyneax

Does the Minister of State agree that Diplock-type courts are not unique? For example, in London the stipendiary magistrates sit without juries, even on the most serious cases. Does the Minister recognise that the Official Unionist Members support the present Government, as we supported their predecessors, in their resolve to end political status for prisoners in any shape or form?

Mr. Alison

I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for drawing our attention again to the variations of the normal jury process. There are stipendiary courts, to which he referred, and the Appeal Court to which I referred. I underline and accept the view that he expressed about the necessity to treat crimes and bloody murder as exactly that, and not as some idealised political acts.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the hon. Gentleman give the House an assurance that there will be no going back on the decision not to give political status to these terrorists—criminals who have been found guilty in a court of law? Does he appreciate that many prison officers have suffered as a result? Many have been killed because they have carried out the Government's will in this matter. They will view any going back on the decision as a betrayal of their stand.

Mr. Alison

I willingly give the hon. Gentleman that assurance. There can be nothing further from the mind of the Government, the Opposition, hon. Members or the people of this country than that there can be some sort of excuse, based upon motive, to mitigate the appalling crimes of murder, brutality, terrorism, and so on. We propose to treat those as criminal acts, and not as political acts requiring some sort of special indulgence.