HC Deb 23 October 1979 vol 972 cc180-2
6. Mr. Gwilym Roberts

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science if he will now make a statement on the future of school meals.

17. Mr. Hal Miller

asked the Secretary of State for Education and Science when he will relieve local education authorities of their obligations to provide school meals and school milk; and if he will make a statement on the latest annual cost of such provision.

Mr. Mark Carlisle

I shall be asking Parliament, in the Bill which I propose to introduce, to give local authorities greater flexibility over the provision of school meals and milk. Annual expenditure on these services in England and Wales is currently about £400 million and I expect the new measures to enable local education authorities to make substantial savings in 1980–81 and subsequent years.

Mr. Roberts

Will the right hon. and learned Gentleman come clean and admit that his proposals will make school meals either unobtainable or available only at a prohibitive price for the great bulk of working-class families? Does he accept that he is turning the clock back 50 years, so that we shall see again undernourished children in our schools?

Mr. Carlisle

I do not accept that. The purpose of the Bill is to give wide flexibility to local education authorities to decide the type of meal that they wish to provide and the charges that they wish to make. I have no doubt, from what we have heard, that most local authorities will continue to provide perhaps a different type of meal at a charge that will be within the pockets of the parents of the children.

Mr. Miller

Does my right hon. and learned Friend agree that it is high time that this £400 million was taken out of the education budget, where it does not belong? If there is a social service requirement for the provision of school meals and school milk to poor families, this should be dealt with in that way and under that heading. Education money should be devoted to education.

Mr. Carlisle

I accept what my hon. Friend says, that although this matter comes in the education budget it is not central to education needs. That is why, in looking for reductions in expenditure in education, I have examined areas such as school meals rather than the provision of education in the classroom itself. It is right, basically, that the school meals service, which started during the war, has become a social service provided by the Department of Education rather than by the Department of Health and Social Security.

Mr. Race

If the Secretary of State is so proud of these reductions in expenditure in the financial year 1980–81, will he tell the House why he failed to consult any trade unions about the proposals being made by the Government? Is he aware that the last time the price of school meals was increased, in 1977, the numbers taking meals fell by 600,000, on a price increase of 10p a day? Is he aware that children in school playgrounds are now calling himself and the Prime Minister milk snatchers and meal stealers?

Mr. Carlisle

Let us deal with the question in the past decade. First, why have I not seen the unions? I have seen both the National Union of Public Employees—

Mr. Race

Afterwards.

Mr. Carlisle

—and the TUC on these matters. I have seen both the unions that requested to see me. I have also seen the local authorities. My colleagues have met some of the teacher associations. On the second part of the question, on reduced numbers, the hon. Gentleman might care to reflect that at the time the party that he supports took office in 1974 the price of a school meal was 12p. According to plans when they left office, the price had gone up to 30p. That was a 150 per cent. increase during the period in power of his Government.

Mr. William Shelton

Is my right hon. and learned Friend aware of the great disparity between administrative and food costs in school meals provision by local authorities, especially in the Inner London Education Authority, which seems to spend more on administration and less on food than most other local education authorities?

Mr. Carlisle

It is not only in inner London that this situation applies. The cost to the public of every school meal produced is 54p. Of that amount, the parent pays 30p and the taxpayer pays 24p. The value of the food in that meal, which cost 54p to produce, is only 16.58p.