Constitutional Conference (Hansard, 22 November 1979)

§ 1. Mr. Hal Miller
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland which political parties have agreed to attend his conference on the reform of local government in Ulster; and when and for how long that conference will be convened.

§ 2. Mr. Flannery
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what is the latest position regarding the invitations and acceptances to the intended conference on Northern Ireland.

§ 3. Mr. Stanbrook
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on the arrangements for the proposed conference on constitutional reform in Northern Ireland.

§ 7. Mr. Whitehead
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when he expects to announce a date for his proposed conference on constitutional proposals for Northern Ireland.

§ 20. Mr. Latham
asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland whether he will make a statement on the progress of his proposed constitutional discussions.

§ The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland (Mr. Humphrey Atkins)
On 20 November I issued formal invitations to the Ulster Unionist Party, the Democratic Unionist Party, the Social Democratic and Labour Party and the Alliance Party to attend a conference to be held in Belfast. On the same day I published and laid before Parliament a working paper, Cmnd. 7763, which, in effect, provides a basis and agenda for this conference. Although I have seen and heard reports of reactions by the parties, I have not yet received any formal replies to my letters of invitation.

§ Mr. Miller
Accepting that all these parties expressed an interest in a greater measure of self-government during the election, does my right hon. Friend agree that there is a great deal to be discussed, such as, perhaps, the role of agriculture, 535 or of commerce and industry, and that therefore the parties would be well advised to attend the conference for that purpose?

§ Mr. Atkins
The Government's policy is to seek acceptable ways of restoring power to locally elected authorities in Northern Ireland. There is a great mass of detail to be discussed and there are many matters that need to be worked out between the parties. I believe in a conference at which all the parties can sit down together. After all, if such a body can be set up, as we all hope it can, these parties will all be represented on it—at least, I hope they will. I believe that the best way to make progress is for us all to get together to consider the great quantity of detailed matters that must be gone into.

Several Hon. Members rose
—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I propose to call first those Members whose questions are being answered.

§ Mr. Flannery
May I place on record my agreement with the right hon. Gentleman for having called this conference and taken the first real political initiative for a long time? May I also say how sad I am—[Interruption.] Government Members do not seem to be interested in—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. If the hon. Gentleman will put his remarks in the form of a question, which he can easily do, everyone will be satisfied.

§ Mr. Flannery
I put my remarks in the form of a question, but the Ulster Unionists will not let me speak. That is the reality.
May I place on record how sad I am that my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) has seen fit to leave the leadership of his party? Should not that be placed on record?
May I, finally, ask the Minister whether he thinks that any real progress will emerge from this initiative? Has he had any indication from the various political parties whether they will come or not? Which parties does he think will not come?

§ Mr. Atkins
I thank the hon. Gentleman for his opening words, and I endorse what he said about the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt), whom we have 536 all known for many years. It must have been a sad moment for the hon. Gentleman when he felt it necessary to resign from the leadership of the party, which I think I am right in saying he founded.
The answer to the main burden of the hon. Gentleman's question is "No, I cannot give him any firm information as I have had no formal replies to my invitations." I have only heard and seen on the radio and television what he has.

§ Mr. Stanbrook
My right hon. Friend has made an honourable and praiseworthy attempt to achieve the impossible, namely, to get all the parties to agree on a solution to this problem. As it appears that this attempt will be unsuccessful, should not the Government be considering their own solution, as announced in the manifesto?

§ Mr. Atkins
The Government are determined, as I announced on 25 October, to seek ways to transfer power to elected representatives in Northern Ireland. I am sure that the right course is to discuss the problem with the people who will be exercising that power how best it can be dealt with. It seems to me, and to the Government, that a conference is the best way of doing that. We shall, of course, not lose sight of our objective, but I repeat that I very much hope that we can persuade people that a conference, at which all the parties can sit down together, is the best way forward.

§ Mr. Whitehead
I add my tribute to the initiative of the Secretary of State. Does he agree that the context of the conference must include the aspirations of the minority community in Northern Ireland towards the government of the Province as a whole? Does he further agree that it would be a great pity if the Social Democratic and Labour Party did not attend the conference?

§ Mr. Atkins
Yes, it would be a great pity if anyone felt unable to attend. I hope that the hon. Member for Derby, North (Mr. Whitehead) and the House will recognise that in the document that was published on Tuesday the Government constantly reiterated their view that the interests of the minority community must be catered for in any new arrangements. We regard that as essential if any proposals that we put before the House are to last. I hope very much 537 that the representatives of the minority community will come and talk to us about that matter.

§ Mr. Latham
Is my right hon. Friend aware that most fair-minded people will consider his White Paper to be an extremely broad and satisfactory document? It will be difficult for people on this side of the water to understand if other people are not prepared to talk about it.

§ Mr. Atkins
I am grateful for what my hon. Friend has said. I can go further than saying that I believe that the people of the Province, too, want to see political advance. In fact, I know that they do, because when I have been there I have heard that that is what the people wish to see. Political advance and political arrangements are settled by politicians. I believe that the people of the Province look to their own political leaders to come together to seek ways of making that political advance.

Mr. Fitt
Will the Secretary of State accept from me that the overwhelming majority of people of all religions and all cultures in Northern Ireland want to see political advance and that they have given no instructions to their leaders to avoid this conference? They desperately want their leaders to attend. Will he also take it from me—I say this in all sincerity—that the document that was drawn up for consultation could have been more diplomatically worded, so as to assure the minority population that their aspirations are not being excluded from any of the discussions that are about to take place? Finally, will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that all is not lost? If the right hon. Gentleman is prepared to give an indication to the minority population, through their leaders in the SDLP, that their aspirations are not being overlooked he may still find them at the conference table.

§ Mr. Atkins
I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he said at the beginning of his remarks, and I take heart from what he said towards the end of them. Of course I recognise the aspirations of the minority community. So far as the internal government of Northern Ireland is concerned, Her Majesty's Government are determined to ensure that the interests of the minority community are taken care of.
538 People talk about an Irish dimension. That means one thing to some people and another thing to others. Of course there is an Irish dimension, and it is a practical one. It is how two communities living on the same island can help each other. One example, to which I attach particular importance, is that they should help each other more on the problem of energy supplies. The reconnection of electricity grids is under discussion with Dublin at present.
An elected representative body in Northern Ireland would have the opportunity to work out for itself the precise nature of its relationship with the Republic of Ireland in respect of those maters on which it had transferred responsibility. I hope that that will be recognised.

§ Rev. Ian Paisley
As two of the parties which have been invited to this conference evidently will not accept the invitation—the Official Unionists and the SDLP—does not the right hon. Gentleman think that it would be advisable to call a conference of the elected representatives in the House so that they can discuss this matter at a proper conference as they have a mandate from the people of Northern Ireland?

§ Mr. Atkins
As I have not had formal replies to my letters of invitation I cannot say yet how many people will or will not attend. As regards elected representatives, I agree with the hon. Gentleman that they have a major part to play. Clearly any proposition put forward by the Government will need to come to the House, and Members will then have the final say.
When I made my statement three weeks ago, there were requests from both sides of the House that the matter should be discussed before the conference assembled. I cannot anticipate what my right hon. Friend the Leader of the House will say this afternoon, but I agree that that would be a very good idea.

§ Mr. John
I add my voice to the expressions of sadness at the resignation of my hon. Friend the Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) as leader of the SDLP. I believe that that will be a tragedy not only for the party that he founded but for the community that he has served so well. Is it not a fact that my hon. 539 Friend joins a growing band of Northern Ireland Members of Parliament who represent electors but are not invited to the talks at present constituted? In view of this growing number, will the right hon. Gentleman reconsider his strategy of the favoured four?
Secondly, if the right hon. Gentleman cannot now say so, will he be in a position, by the time of the debate on this document, to give us his considered views on the position if, as is rumoured in the newspapers, two of the four parties that have been invited do not accept?
Thirdly, will he consider publishing the letter that he sent to the SDLP last night, the report of which in The Times today appears to modify his discussion document and which should, therefore, be read in full in conjunction with that document?

§ Mr. Atkins
On the final point made by the hon. Gentleman, of course I shall consider any proposition that he wishes to put to me. I do not think that I am in a position to answer hypothetical questions about what to do if certain things happen. I repeat that I have not heard from any of the parties in answer to my formal invitation. When I have done so I shall make up my mind how best to proceed.
The other point that the hon. Gentleman made was about the composition of the conference. It seems right to the Government that the people at the conference should be the leaders of the main political parties in Northern Ireland. That is what I have announced, and that is the position as things stand. I agree with the hon. Gentleman that it is regrettable that the hon. Member for Belfast, West (Mr. Fitt) is no longer the leader of a political party. That does not alter the fact that the party of which he was until so recently the leader is still a potent force in the land.

§ Mr. Bradford
Does the Secretary of State accept that in view of the recent political developments in Northern Ireland the proposed conference has been rendered futile? When will he bring to the House his proposals to reform local government in Northern Ireland, and a proposal for a devolved Parliament in the Province?

§ Mr. Atkins
The hon. Gentleman says that the conference is futile. I do not 540 know that it is, yet. If it should transpire that nobody will come to the conference, clearly we shall have to seek other ways forward. The Government are determined to find a way forward, but are equally determined to find a way, if they possibly can, that is acceptable to the people of Northern Ireland. They are the people who matter. Somehow or other I have to discover their views and see whether they can reach an accommodation on a way forward that will not only be acceptable now but will last. That is the important thing to do.

§ Mr. Kilfedder
Does not the Secretary of State realise that he will obtain the views of the Ulster people by making sure that all Ulster Members of Parliament are at this conference? Will he give an assurance that he will press ahead with the conference, irrespective of who attends it, and that he will make sure that that agreement is put before the Ulster people, who can decide whether to accept or reject it in a referendum?

§ Mr. Atkins
That is certainly the way forward that we shall consider if the circumstances so demand. I reiterate the determination of the Government to find a way forward and to come to the House with recommendations. It is my earnest wish to come to the House knowing that what I recommend has the support of all the people of the Province.