Defence Sales Organisation (Hansard, 20 March 1979)

§ 1. Mr. Cryer
asked the Secretary of State for Defence if he will make a statement on the Defence Sales Organisation.

§ The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Dr. John Gilbert)
The Defence Sales Organisation continues to provide support, assistance and advice to British industry and the Royal ordnance factories on the promotion of overseas sales of defence equipment and associated services.

§ Mr. Cryer
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the Defence Sales Organisation will not be used to sell discarded Iranian surplus Chieftain tanks to China? Does he acknowledge that Labour Party policy, which involves a switch from war production to peaceful production, should be implemented by producing a plan for that peaceful transition, in conjunction with the Department of Industry? Does he accept that recent statements by the Pope, for example, heartily endorse Labour Party policies? Can my right hon. Friend make a start by announcing the phased withdrawal of the Defence Sales Organisation?

§ Dr. Gilbert
As to the first part of my hon. Friend's question, we have, as far as I know, received no request from China for tanks to be sold to them, so that point does not arise. As regards my hon. Friend's more general point, namely, the conversion of defence industries to peaceful production, no one would be happier than Defence Ministers if there were no need to produce military equipment on the present scale. Unfortunately, questions of this sort depend very much 1282 on the progress of detente, and for the time being we need such defence production capability as we have in order to equip Her Majesty's Forces.

§ Sir Ian Gilmour
Does the Minister of State agree that this does not entirely depend on the progress of detente? Should he not point out to his exceedingly ill-informed hon. Friend the Member for Keighley (Mr. Cryer) that, under this Government, the number of unemployed is already 1,400,000? Therefore, to stop defence production would merely add to unemployment.

§ Dr. Gilbert
In the past I have given instruction to the right hon. Gentleman's then deputy to the effect that defence production was engaged in for the defence of this country and not as an employment-generating function. I regret to have to repeat that instruction to him.

§ Mr. Grocott
Does my right hon. Friend agree that it would appear very strange to the neutral observer if Britain were supplying defence equipment to countries which we helped through the aid programmes of the Ministry of Overseas Development? Will my right hon. Friend liaise with his right hon. Friend to ensure that we do not find ourselves in the profoundly cynical position of following a policy of giving aid to the poorest countries and at the same time of supplying them with sophisticated military equipment?

§ Dr. Gilbert
I see nothing particularly inconsistent in those two activities. As I have said at this Dispatch Box on more than one occasion, I deplore the fact that the less developed countries find it necessary to spend such a large part of their scarce resources on defence equipment. I am sure that my hon. Friend and I are totally at one on that. However, the fact remains that they require this equipment, and when they wish to purchase it from us from time to time it produces jobs for our factories rather than the factories of other countries.

§ Mr. Banks
Concerning the contract for Iran, why is the Minister so reticent about providing us with details of the contracts at the Royal Ordnance Factory, Leeds, which now look like being lost? Does he recognise the importance of the jobs of the people working there and the need for continuity of production? Will he 1283 consider what budget extensions may be necessary to allow the British Army to re-equip with a modern tank in the 1980s?

§ Dr. Gilbert
I assure the hon. Gentleman that we are seized of the serious implications for the Royal Ordnance Factory, Leeds, of the ending of project 4030 for Iran. My right hon. Friend and I have already had discussions with the trade unions involved at national level, and I understand that local discussions are also taking place. I have also taken the initiative with ministerial colleagues in other Departments in attempting to find other work to go to the Royal Ordnance Factory, Leeds. I wholly share the hon. Gentleman's view that it is necessary for us to preserve a tank capability at Leeds in order to equip the British Army in the 1980s with what I believe will be one of the finest tanks in the world.