HC Deb 08 March 1979 vol 963 cc1462-7
2. Mr. Michael McNair-Wilson

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will summarise the progress of his new approach to political parties in the Province about a measure of devolution for Northern Ireland.

9. Mr. Townsend

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland if he will make a statement on recent political developments in Northern Ireland.

Mr. Mason

The leaders of three of the four main parties in Northern Ireland have replied to my letter of 16 January in which I set out the basis on which I believed that political progress could be made. I have received no formal reply from the Social Democratic and Labour Party, but I understand that it is preparing a policy statement. I have had further correspondence with the leaders of the Ulster Unionist Party and the Democratic Unionist Party to clarify certain issues. I hope soon to have further bilateral talks.

Mr. McNair-Wilson

In a recent copy of Ulster Commentary the Secretary of State talks about the need to find common ground before any move towards devolution can take place. Is there any sign of that common ground in the reply that he has received? Does he think that the time has come to share his thoughts and those of the political parties in Northern Ireland with the House of Commons by publishing a Green Paper?

Mr. Mason

I do not think that it is necessary to publish a Green Paper. Those who take an interest in Northern Ireland affairs are fully aware of the problems. I am seeking common ground and appealing to the parties to take that approach. They often talk about their long-term aspirations—that highlights the differences between the major parties—instead of considering their short term aspirations and finding some common ground so that the common goal of devolution may be achieved.

Mr. Townsend

Will the right hon. Gentleman assure the House that in the few remaining weeks available to him he will make a full attempt to achieve devolved government based on the principle of partnership and will not merely kick into touch?

Mr. Mason

I have no intention of kicking into touch. I have been constantly in communication with the four major parties to try to move on this plane of discussion towards devolution. Some of the party leaders probably feel that a general election is in the air, whether that is a British or European election. There is posturing by the political parties. No matter when the election comes and no matter who stands at the Dispatch Box as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, the House has taken the decision that there should be devolution acceptable to the majority and the minority. That will have to be faced in due course no matter who stands at the Dispatch Box as Secretary of State for Northern Ireland.

Mr. Molyneaux

Will the right hon. Gentleman undertake to study the Hansard report of last night's debate, in which he will find that all hon. Members representing Northern Ireland parties were agreed that bodies such as the housing executive should be brought under the control of and made accountable to locally elected representatives?

Mr. Mason

I undertake to read the views of the hon. Gentleman and his hon. Friends on that topic. I was in the Province yesterday. I lunched with the whole of the Northern Ireland Housing Executive. It has done and is doing a good job.

Mr. Carson

No.

Mr. Mason

Most people in the Province realise that more of them are getting a fairer housing deal now than they were some years ago.

Mr. Fitt

Is not it a fact that up to the moment the political parties in Northern Ireland have not shifted on the restoration of majority rule in my right hon. Friend's discussions with them? Is not that completely opposed to the precept of the British Government, who are seeking a partnership administration that would bring broadly acceptable solutions to the problems in Northern Ireland? That is why there has been no progress in the talks.

Mr. Mason

I have continually stressed that if devolution in Northern Ireland is to be achieved it will have to be on a basis that is acceptable to all the parties in the Province and acceptable to the majority and minority communities. The demand for the restoration of a majority convention is often put to me by the Democratic Unionist Party and the official Unionist Party. However, my hon. Friend will recognise that the unionist parties were prepared to discuss with me something less than their demand for a majority convention. That in itself has been a progressive step towards finding a solution.

Mr. Neave

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he should take the advice of the hon. Member for Antrim, South (Mr. Molyneaux) and read the Hansard report of last night's debate? If he does so, he will recognise that there is full justification for having a locally elected forum in Northern Ireland. Is he aware that we regret that such little progress has so far been made with his plans for interim devolution? Does he not think that the appointment of an eminent judicial figure or other person, not to delay decisions but to work out a formula for one or more widely acceptable elected regional councils, is the answer?

Mr. Mason

I am aware of that view. Harry West, who is the leader of the official Unionist Party, has discussed openly the various alternatives. If they could obtain and if there could be a major form of local government in Northern Ireland based on majority rule. that would satisfy the Unionists but it would not satisfy the minority in the Province. I am aware of the hon. Gentleman's proposal, but I do not think that that is worth considering until I finalise the bilateral talks with the official parties.

Mr. McNamara

Will my right hon. Friend give an undertaking that it will not be Her Majesty's Government's intention to seek to prolong their life by making an agreement on local government reform in Northern Ireland so as to get the Ulster Unionists into the Government Lobby?

Mr. Mason

I think that my hon. Friend can rest assured that I shall not make any pact, deal or agreement of that sort.

Rev. Ian Paisley

Will the right hon. Gentleman take it from me that the vast majority in Northern Ireland do not want local government reform? Does he agree that the majority want a devolved parliament and devolved government in Northern Ireland? Will he give an assurance that the people of Northern Ireland will have the same right as the people of Wales and Scotland to express their view in a referendum when Parliament comes up with a so-called solution, and that they will be able to decide whether that is acceptable to them?

Mr. Mason

I think that the hon. Gentleman is correct in saying that the majority want devolution to Northern Ireland. As for a referendum, we had better wait and see what sort of devolution proposals are brought before Parliament and whether Parliament wants to take that decision about a referendum.

3. Mr. Flannery

asked the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland what plans he has to hold discussions with the Social Democratic and Labour Party of Northern Ireland.

Mr. Mason

I hope that the leaders of all four major parties in Northern Ireland including the Social Democratic and Labour Party, will agree to join with me in a further exploration of arrangements which could lead to the creation of an acceptable form of devolved government.

Mr. Flannery

I thank my right hon. Friend for that answer. In view of his answer to an earlier question, does he agree that throughout the years of the terrible emergency in Northern Ireland, especially for the people of Northern Ireland, the Social and Democratic Labour Party has been the firmest friend that the Government have had in Northern Ireland? Its leader, under terrible conditions, has always been in this place to sustain the Government. It is significant that there is laughter from the other side of the Chamber. However, in view of the change of policy of the Southern Irish Government, of the Opposition in Southern Ireland, Fine Gael, and the SDLP on the issue of the troops, will my right hon. Friend take the greatest care to ensure that what is a developing gulf between the British Government and the SDLP is healed as quickly as possible so that we do not in any way blunder into widening the gulf?

Mr. Mason

I think that my hon. Friend has it wrong on many counts.

Mr. Flannery

So the Opposition parties say.

Mr. Mason

No, so I say. I am trying to be fair to my hon. Friend. He must not make such generalisations, that will be heard and read in Northern Ireland, as if they are fact. The SDLP is not in favour of pulling out the troops from Northern Ireland.

Mr. Flannery

I did not say that it was.

Mr. Mason

Neither is Fine Gael.

Mr. Litterick

Stop misrepresenting my hon. Friend the Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery).

Mr. Flannery

On a point of order, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

Will the hon. Member for Sheffield, Hillsborough (Mr. Flannery) leave his point of order until the end of Question Time?

Mr. Flannery

I should prefer to make it now, Mr. Speaker.

Mr. Speaker

If the hon. Gentleman wishes to make it now, I shall answer it quickly.

Mr. Flannery

My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State, albeit innocently perhaps, is totally distorting my supplementary question. I said "In view of the change of policy" about the troops. I did not say anything about troops out.

Mr. Mason

But what changes of policy have there been?

Mr. Flannery

If you do not know, who does?

Mr. Mason

Her Majesty's Government have not changed the policy on troops. In its recent paper Fine Gael did not say that the troops should be withdrawn. The SDLP at its last major conference decided that withdrawal of British troops was desirable and inevitable but should be in keeping with a political solution. That is the core of the matter and that is what we must try to do.

Mr. Speaker

Order. We are proceeding very slowly. Supplementary questions and answers should be briefer.

Mr. McCusker

When the Secretary of State meets the leaders of the SDLP, will he again press them not only to support the RUC, but to encourage young Roman Catholics in Northern Ireland to join?

Mr. Mason

That would be a most helpful initiative from political and Church leaders. With the remarkable success of the RUC, and its increased credibility and esteem in the Province, it would be good to get more of the minority community involved in law and order. After the court case of the Shankill butchers, no one can say that the RUC is leaning one way or the other.