HC Deb 26 June 1979 vol 969 cc272-4
10. Mr. Meacher

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services what is his policy on means tests for social benefits.

Mr. Patrick Jenkin

Our first priority is to get the economy right. As living standards improve, so there should be less need for dependence on means-tested benefits.

Mr. Meacher

That is an optimistic reply. Are the Government still hankering after the tax credit scheme, or have they accepted that it would be too costly and would still leave millions on supplementary benefit anyway? If so, what alternative proposals have the Government to reverse the extension of the means-test State which their regressive policies in the Budget have made inevitable?

Mr. Jenkin

It is a bit rich for members of the previous Government to talk about the means-test State. Under Socialism there was a massive increase in means testing. The numbers on means-tested supplementary benefit went up by 1 million, the number of unemployed on means-tested supplementary benefit almost trebled, the number of children receiving the means-tested benefit of free school meals increased from 750,000 to well over a million and the number of families on means-tested housing benefits increased by 1 million. Had the Labour Party remained in power, that appalling record would have been crowned by a half-baked, half hearted means-tested benefit scheme for sixth formers. It does not lie in the mouths of Ministers in the previous Government to criticise means testing.

Mrs. Knight

Does my right hon. Friend agree that there can be no justification for paying public money unless the need for it has been established? Does he also agree that, although the phrase "means test" is emotive, the public will not easily forgive the payment of its money to any extended palm without a clear indication that the filling of that palm is necessary?

Mr. Jenkin

It has been the policy of successive Governments to seek to maintain and, where possible, to increase the real value of the contributory benefits under the national insurance scheme to which beneficiaries are entitled as of right without means testing. However, the chairman of the Supplementary Benefits Commission has repeatedly drawn attention to the fact that it is a feature of the pattern of the post-war period that those who have had to rely on means-tested supplementary benefits, instead of being the small residue which was envisaged when the scheme was introduced, have reached very large num- bers. That is something to which the Government will be giving attention.

Mr. Orme

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the proposed introduction of free television licences for pensioners was one way in which the previous Government were to move away from means testing? Is he aware that our proposal for a new pension scheme, to float pensioners off means testing, would have been another positive step forward? Does he realise that his Government's proposals, particularly on VAT and increases in the cost of living, will put more people, not fewer, on means testing?

Mr. Jenkin

I am astonished that the right hon. Gentleman should refer to his party's proposal for free television licences for pensioners when he, as one of the Ministers involved, must know that there was not one penny piece provided in the Government's Estimates to pay for that proposal.