HC Deb 20 June 1979 vol 968 cc1305-7
12. Mr. Hal Miller

asked the Minister of Transport what is his policy towards establishing a national scheme of concessionary fares for the elderly and the disabled; and if he will make a statement.

21. Mr. Skinner

asked the Minister of Transport whether he has any plans to meet retirement pensioners' associations to discuss a national policy of half-fares for all pensioners.

Mr. Kenneth Clarke

We have no intention of introducing a national scheme at present. It is for individual local authorities to decide what concessions they wish to provide within the resources available to them, but I hope they will themselves continue to work together to remove anomalies wherever possible.

Mr. Miller

Does not my hon. Friend agree that it is the local authorities which create the anomalies? Will he consider the matter again, with a view to doing away with the anomalies which cause so much distress to the elderly and the disabled? Is he aware that in my constituency the two local authorities follow different practices in regard to the disabled?

Mr. Clarke

I take my hon. Friend's point, but with our system of local government it is inevitable that various local authorities will sometimes take different decisions. There are differing needs between local authority areas—for instance, between those with a comprehensive bus service and those that do not have such a service, so that pensioners are not able to take advantage of concessionary fares.

Mr. Skinner

Is the Minister aware that there are many local authorities with no transport undertaking which need national guidance? They would have received national guidance and support had a Labour Government been returned at the last election, since pledges to give that help were included in our manifesto. Is it not worth noting that while the Minister and the rest of the Treasury Bench are carried from pillar to post free of charge in ministerial cars, the poor old pensioners and disabled do not have the opportunity of even a miserly half-fare scheme? Why does not the Minister get something done instead of prattling on?

Mr. Clarke

May I first reassure the hon. Gentleman that I do from time to time catch buses. The answer to his more serious point is that the proposal we inherited for a national scheme would not have removed all the anomalies. There would still have been anomalies between local authority areas. Practice varies between authorities with extensive bus undertakings and some other authorities.

Mr. Skinner

Some are mean and despicable.

Mr. Clarke

If the hon. Gentleman looks at my original answer, he will see that I said that I hoped that local authorities would minimise the anomalies. We shall certainly be keeping an eye on the situation to see what steps are taken.

Mr. Cormack

Will my hon. Friend do a little more than keep his eye on the situation? Will he take an initiative? Will he call a conference of local authorities to encourage them to bring in at least a uniform half-fare scheme for the whole nation?

Mr. Clarke

One of the first things that I shall be doing is to study the response to the previous Government's Green Paper, to which most local authorities have replied. There were considerable objections to that scheme. My recollection is that the majority of the local authorities that responded were against the national half-fare scheme that we inherited.

Mr. Booth

Do the Government accept that the need of many of the elderly and disabled for concessionary fares does not depend upon the local authority area in which they happen to reside? Do they not realise that there is an overwhelming case for introducing a national scheme which will ensure a minimum standard of concessionary fares, while leaving it open to local authorities to provide a better standard if they decide that that is necessary in the light of their own circumstances?

Mr. Clarke

I entirely accept that free and ready travel is an important necessity for many old people, but circumstances vary from place to place. The beneficiaries of concessionary travel tend to be the fit pensioners who are able to get on a bus and who live near a bus route. Other areas that do not have extensive bus services find that there is not the same need. I hope that most local authorities will look at the needs of the elderly in their areas. We do not accept that a national scheme can meet all circumstances.