HC Deb 18 July 1979 vol 970 cc1941-51

11.8 p.m.3

Mr. Dennis Canavan (West Stirlingshire)

I beg to move, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Housing (Limitation of Rent Income Increases) (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth District) (Scotland) Revocation Order 1979 (S.I., 1979, No. 669), dated 13th June 1979, a copy of which was laid before this House on 20th June, be annulled. The motion is supported by over 80 right hon. and hon. Members.

About 18 months ago the House was debating what is now the Housing (Financial Provisions) (Scotland) Act 1978 and the proposal to remove the statutory maximum annual rent increase of £39. Many hon. Members, including myself, stated our opposition to its removal and eventually we persuaded the then Government to reach a compromise whereby the Secretary of State would have reserve powers to intervene if he thought that a local authority was trying to impose a rent increase that he considered to be excessive.

Many of us predicted at that time that some local authorities would be so irresponsible that if the statutory maximum rent increase were removed they would try to levy exorbitant rent increases on council house tenants.

Those predictions have been proved right, because about 12 months later the SNP-controlled Cumbernauld and Kilsyth district council put forward a proposal to raise rents by an average of about 40 per cent. I made representations to the then Secretary of State—my right hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Craigton (Mr. Millan). On 29 March this year he responded by tabling an order to place a maximum average rent increase of £59 per annum. This was the first time that the Secretary of State had used his powers under the 1978 Act.

Unfortunately, before the order came into full effect the general election intervened. Shortly after the general election the new Tory Secretary of State tabled an order to revoke the previous order. He did not even have the courtesy to inform me that he had tabled the order. However, I found out and I have raised this matter several times on the Floor of the House.

At the last Scottish Question Time I was told by the Under-Secretary of State for Scotland—the hon. Member for Edinburgh, Pentlands (Mr. Rifkind)—who is responsible for housing in Scotland that there were no good grounds for interfering with the district council's discretion.

Since then—and before—I have been in touch with the district council. From the correspondence that I have had with Provost Murray, I understand that his case rests on three points. The first is that the rents in Kilsyth and Cumbernauld district are low compared with the rest of Scotland. The provost has been known to say that the rents are the lowest in Scotland. That is untrue. I have checked and I find that in Cumnock and Doon Valley and Monklands, for example, the average rents are lower.

However, the rents of Cumbernauld and Kilsyth district council council houses are lower than the Scottish average. That is because of the wise housing investment policies of the previous local authorities before reorganisation. They were Labour-controlled and included the Dunbartonshire county council, the Stirlingshire county council and the former Kilsyth town council.

They invested in public sector house building at a time when money was relatively cheap to borrow. They built up a good stock of pre-war and post-war houses. In May 1975 they handed over a stock of 4,273 houses. By September 1978 the district council housing stock stood at 4,370. That is a miserable 97 houses that Provost Murray and his SNP-controlled council have managed to construct in three and a half years—an average of fewer than 30 houses per year.

Secondly, the provost argues that the rents of district council houses are low compared with the rents of other public sector houses in the district—notably the Cumbernauld development corporation houses. I shall leave my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg) to answer that argument, because the development corporation houses are in his constituency.

Thirdly, the provost argues that the new housing support grant means an unfortunate reduction in subsidy of over £200,000 for this year alone. He quoted that figure in a letter to the Secretary of State, dated 13 July. I have checked that figure—as I check many of the provost's statements—and I find that that is also inaccurate. There has been a reduction in the subsidy under the new system but it is of £100,000, not £200,000. The provost is only 100 per cent. wrong—which is quite good by his standards.

The provost conveniently forgets to mention in his letter that this financial year the district council carried over a surplus of £150,000 from the previous financial year and managed to freeze the rates at 11p per pound, which is one of the lowest rate poundages in the whole of the Strathclyde region. I submit that there is no case for a 40 per cent. rent increase in the district council's area. Even if there were a case for a substantial rent increase, it is surely unfair on the tenants to levy it all at once. It is also untrue to claim that there have been no reasonable increases recently. The district council has not frozen rents unreasonably. According to the latest issue of Rating Review, there has been a 73 per cent. increase in rents from 1975 to 1978. That is a slightly higher percentage than the Scottish average.

It would be most unfair if the people of Kilsyth, Queenzieburn, Banton, Kelvin-head and also Croy, in the constituency of my hon. Friend the Member for Dunbartonshire, East, were to be penalised because at the time of the stupid Tory Government's local government reorganisation they were lumped together with a new town with a different financial structure for its housing and different historical circumstances.

These people also have the misfortune to be ruled locally by an SNP authority. There is the unholy alliance of a Tory Government collaborating with an SNP-controlled district council to impose a savage and unwarranted 40 per cent. increase. It is an attack on the living standards of thousands of my constituents. It is also against the spirit of the 1978 Act. I remember that when we were debating that measure on the Floor of the House the then Labour Government stated that it was their policy, and the spirit of the Act, that any rent increases, where necessary, should be in line with increases in average earnings.

I do not know of any of my constituents who live in council houses who have had recent wage increases of as much as 40 per cent. I claim that this is discrimination against council tenants mostly in the Kilsyth and surrounding area, where most of the council houses are situated. I claim that the discrimination is partly because the people in the area show no political allegiance to Provost Murray. He is retaliating rather like a medieval landlord by imposing excessive rent increases and getting the approval of the Tory Government.

It is a pity that the provost did not come to the House to listen to the debate. If he does not want to be branded throughout the district as one of the lackeys of the "Iron Lady", he had better change his ways. Indeed, he should resign. In any event, the electorate will get rid of him next May at the district council elections.

11.18 p.m.

Mr. Norman Hogg (Dunbartonshire, East)

I support my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan). I have the distinction of sharing the provost and his local authority.

The rent increases are of an unacceptably high level. We are talking about a 40 per cent. rent increase, which is £71 per annum on average. This comes about because the Cumbernauld and Kilsyth district council lacks any coherent rent policy. That has been the position for a number of years. In latter days it has been arguing that there should be comparability between itself and the Cumbernauld development corporation.

In Cumbernauld 80.6 per cent. of the population live in public stock housing. That compares with 61.4 per cent in Strathclyde, 54.2 per cent. in Scotland and 31.3 per cent. in the United Kingdom. The House will appreciate that what happens to rents in one area of the public housing sector has an impact in other areas.

It is a fallacious argument to offer a comparison with the development corporation. All the CDC houses have been built in the past 21 years. The quality of the CDC houses is much higher than that of the council housing stock. The two different housing stocks have been subject to different financial provisions.

The council houses in Croy, to which my hon. Friend referred—

Mr. Gordon Wilson (Dundee, East)

Is the hon. Member for West Stirling-shire (Mr. Canavan) the friend of the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg)?

Mr. Hogg

I notice that the hon. Gentleman is somewhat short of friends these days.

The position in Croy is that the housing stock is in an appalling condition. It is monstrous that the tenants in that village, where the environment is in an appalling condition because of the neglect by this district council, should be asked to face this rent increase.

The arguments about comparability of rent levels do not hold good. Elsewhere in my constituency we find council housing that is let at below the rent levels charged by the Cumbernauld and Kilsyth district council.

There are five main grounds on which I support my hon. Friend the Member for West Stirlingshire. The increases are much too large; they take no account of the age of the houses and their quality; they take no account of the loan charge relative to poor property subject to the increase; they are out of line with rent movements in Scotland as a whole; and they place the rent levels outside the average of authorities within my constituency. I believe that the Government have been motivated in this matter by their much-repeated views on council house finance.

11.21 p.m.

Mr. Gordon Wilson (Dundee, East)

I thank you, Mr. Deputy Speaker, for calling me to speak briefly on this matter. The provost of Cumbernauld, as the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) said—it was the only thing he said that was right—is not present this evening to answer the character assassination that was made on him by the hon. Gentleman.

In this short debate we have to deal with the complex matter of financing. The blame must rest on the former Labour Government. The provost of Cumbernauld wrote on four occasions to the then Secretary of State pointing out, from 13 November 1978 onwards, that the housing support grant allocation was so loaded that it would place an impossible burden on the Cumbernauld and Kilsyth district, which had a special make-up in relation to housing. A large proportion are public sector houses controlled by the Cumbernauld development corporation, which has 4,000 houses, compared with the 10,000 houses that are under the control of the district council direct. The rents of the development corporation houses are fixed in effect by the Government, by means of a board appointed by the Labour Government.

The provost of Cumbernauld drew to the attention of the then Government the fact that there was a serious anomaly. It began to break through even into their dense minds that there was an impossible situation. Nothing was done. The situation remained that the district council would have to impose a heavy rate impost on those tenants of the development corporation who were paying some of the highest rents in Scotland, over which the district council had no control or influence.

When the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg) claims to be acting in this matter, he is demanding that his constituents who live in Cumbernauld—although they are paying higher rents than those who live in the Kilsyth area and other areas under the control of the district council—should personally subsidise the others who live in the district council areas.

It is agreed that this is a large increase, for which the Labour Party must accept complete blame. It was their housing support allocation. Does the Minister admit that there was an anomaly under the previous housing support grant? What will he do about it? This problem will recur in Cumbernauld and Kilsyth. As changes in local government finance take place, other local authorities in England and Scotland will be affected.

11.24 p.m.

Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton)

I want briefly to associate myself with my hon. Friends the Members for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) and Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg). This evening we saw examples of the humbug of the Tories and the usual blethering from the Scottish National Party.

It is interesting, Mr. Deputy Speaker, to note that this evening we are debating an order made under an Act of Parliament of 1978, and that in the debate that gave my right hon. Friend the then Secretary of State for Scotland the powers to invoke this restriction on abnormal rent increases the former hon. Member for Glasgow, Cathcart, our late lamented friend Mr. Teddy Taylor—An HON. MEMBER: "Unlamented."]—well, unlamented—said in the course of that debate: By and large the new clause is sensible. It is flexible and the Government have been rather brave to introduce it "—[Official Report, First Scottish Standing Committee, 2 February 1978; col. 283.] Later that very same afternoon no Division took place on the clause. The clause giving the Secretary of State for Scotland that power was carried with the support of the Tories on the Committee, and they included the present Secretary of State for Scotland in the Conservative Government.

Here we have humbug yet again from the Government, and it is most appropriate that we are having this short debate immediately after the Third Reading of the Finance Bill. The Government are dedicated to reducing the standard of living of ordinary people in this country by every means possible. These people, the rudderless disciples of Milton Friedman, will show through this and so many other actions that they have nothing left to contribute to the people of Scotland.

11.27 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Malcolm Rifkind)

I hesitate to intervene, Mr. Deputy Speaker, in what appears to be a private dispute between the Labour Party and the Scottish nationalist provost of Cumbernauld, but the Government's position is quite clear. It is that on this matter, unless abnormal circumstances exist, it is quite inappropriate for the Government to intervene in what is essentially a decision to be taken by the local authority.

Those Labour Members who have spoken seem to be ignoring the fact that, if their views were upheld, the burden of paying for the £600,000 deficit which the district council face would not fall on the Government. It would fall on the rest of the community in the district council, because it would have to be paid for out of the rate fund. It would have to be paid for by the tenants of the Cumbernauld new town development corporation—tenants like local authority tenants but tenants who are already paying a far greater proportion in rent than is presently being requested by the district council of its housing tenants.

What is quite clear, Mr Deputy Speaker, is that 40 per cent. of the deficit that the district council is presently facing is a direct result of the housing support grant reform introduced by the Labour Government. They at the time were warned of the consequences of this but they now have the cheek to lecture the district council which is now trying to rectify that problem.

The rent increases proposed by the district council are 38 per cent., but the rate fund contribution being requested of the rest of the community in the district council is 76 per cent. If the views of the hon. Member for West Stirlingshire (Mr. Canavan) and the hon. Member for Dunbartonshire, East (Mr. Hogg) were accepted, all the other residents of that same area would have to pay contributions far in excess of that proportion.

Mr. Gordon Wilson


Mr. Rifkind

Therefore I say, Mr. Deputy Speaker, that this is a matter for the district council to determine. We do not instruct it as to what rent it should impose. We do not even make a recommendation to it. When it has come to this decision, the Government see absolutely no reason to reverse it or to prevent it carrying out what it believes to be the interests of its own community.

Mr. Wilson

On a point of order, Mr. Deputy Speaker. I specifically put a question to the Minister, and on the basis of the answer to that question I was intending to decide which way my vote would go in this matter.

Mr. Deputy Speaker

The point has been taken.

Question put, That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that the Housing (Limitation of Rent Income Increases) (Cumbernauld and Kilsyth District) (Scotland) Revocation Order 1979 (S.I., 1979, No. 669), dated 13th June 1979, a copy of which was laid before this House on 20th June, be annulled.

The House divided: Ayes 126, Noes 167.

Division No. 68] AYES (10.54 p.m.
Adley, Robert Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton)
Aitken, Jonathan Bowden, Andrew Clark, William (Croydon South)
Alexander, Richard Boyson, Dr Rhodes Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe)
Alison, Michael Braine, Sir Bernard Clegg, Walter
Amery, Rt Hon Julian Bright, Graham Cockeram, Eric
Ancram, Michael Brinton, Timothy Colvin, Michael
Arnold, Tom Brittan, Leon Cope, John
Aspinwall, Jack Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher Cormack, Patrick
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Brooke, Hon Peter Corrie, John
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) Brotherton, Michael Costain, A. P.
Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Cranborne, Viscount
Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) Browne, John (Winchester) Critchley, Julian
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Bruce-Gardyne, John Crouch, David
Banks, Robert Bryan, Sir Paul Dean, Paul (North Somerset)
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick Dickens, Geoffrey
Bell, Ronald Buck, Antony Dodsworth, Geoffrey
Bendall, Vivian Budgen, Nick Dorrell, Stephen
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Bulmer, Esmond Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James
Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) Burden, F. A. Dover, Denshore
Benyon, W. (Buckingham) Butcher, John du Cann, Rt Hon Edward
Best, Keith Butler, Hon Adam Dunn, Robert (Dartford)
Bevan, David Gilroy Cadbury, Jocelyn Durant, Tony
Biffen, Rt Hon John Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Dykes, Hugh
Biggs-Davison, John Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) Eden, Rt Hon Sir John
Blackburn, John Chalker, Mrs. Lynda Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke)
Body, Richard Channon, Paul Eggar, Timothy
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Chapman, Sydney Elliott, Sir William
Boscawen, Hon Robert Churchill, W.S. Emery, Peter
Eyre, Reginald Langford-Holt, Sir John Renton, Tim
Fairbairn, Nicholas Latham, Michael Rhodes James, Robert
Fairgrieve, Russell Lawrence, Ivan Ridsdale, Julian
Faith, Mrs Sheila Lawson, Nigel Rifkind, Malcolm
Farr, John Lee, John Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW)
Fell, Anthony Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark Roberts, Wyn (Conway)
Fenner, Mrs Peggy Lester, Jim (Beeston) Rossi, Hugh
Finsberg, Geoffrey Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) Rost, Peter
Fisher, Sir Nigel Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo) Royle, Sir Anthony
Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) Sainsbury, Hon Timothy
Fletcher-Cooke, Charles Loveridge, John St. John Stevas, Rt Hon Norman
Fookes, Miss Janet Luce, Richard Scott, Nicholas
Forman, Nigel Lyell, Nicholas Sha[...] Michael (Scarborough)
Fowler, Rt Hon Norman McAdden, Sir Stephen Shelton, William (Streatham)
Fox, Marcus McCrindle, Robert Shepherd, Colin (Hereford)
Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) Macfarlane, Neil Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills)
Fraser, Peter (South Angus) MacGregor, John Shersby, Michael
Fry, Peter Mackay, John (Argyll) Silvester, Fred
Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) Sims, Roger
Gardiner, George (Reigate) McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) Skeet, T. H. H.
Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton)
Garel-Jones, Tristan Madel, David Speed, Keith
Glyn, Dr Alan Major, John Speller, Tony
Goodhart, Philip Marland, Paul Spence, John
Goodlad, Alastair Marlow, Antony Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire)
Gorst, John Marshall, Michael (Arundel) Sproat, Iain
Gow, Ian Marten, Neil (Banbury) Squire, Robin
Gower, Sir Raymond Mates, Michael Stanbrook, Ivor
Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) Mather, Carol Stanley, John
Greenway, Harry Maude, Rt Hon Angus Steen, Anthony
Grieve, Percy Mawby, Ray Stevens, Martin
Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) Mawhinney, Dr Brian Stewart, Ian (Hitchin)
Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire)
Grist, Ian Mayhew, Patrick Stokes, John
Grylls, Michael Mellor, David Stradling Thomas. J.
Meyer, Sir Anthony Tapsell, Peter
Gummer, John Selwyn Miller Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) Tebbit, Norman
Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) Mills, Iain (Meriden) Temple-Morris, Peter
Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) Mills, Peter (West Devon) Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Hampson, Dr Keith Miscampbell, Norman Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S)
Hannam, John Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) Thompson, Donald
Haselhurst, Alan Moate, Roger Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael
Hawkins, Paul Montgomery, Fergus Thornton, George
Moore, John Townend, John (Bridlington)
Hawksley, Warren Morgan, Geraint Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath)
Hayhoe, Barney Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) Trippier, David
Heath, Rt Hon Edward Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) Trotter, Neville
Heddle, John
Henderson, Barry Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) van Straubenzee, W. R
Heseltine, Rt Hon Michael Mudd, David Vaughan, Dr Gerard
Hicks, Robert Murphy, Christopher Viggers, Peter
Higgins, Terence L. Myles, David Waddington, David
Higgins, Terence L. Neale, Gerrard Wakeham, John
Hill, James Nelson, Anthony Waldegrave, Hon William
Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) Neubert, Michael Walker, Rt Hon Peter (Worcester)
Holland, Philip (Carlton) Newton, Tony Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek
Hooson, Tom Nott, Rt Hon John Wall, Patrick
Hordern, Peter Onslow, Cranley Waller, Gary
Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey Walters, Dennis
Howell, Rt Hon David (Guildford) Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally
Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) Osborn, John Ward, John
Page, John (Harrow, West) Warren, Kenneth
Hunt, David (Wirral) Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Watson, John
Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) Parkinson, Cecil Wells, John (Maidstone)
Hurd, Hon Douglas Patten, Christopher (Bath) Wells, P. Bowen (Hert'rd&Stev'nage)
Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) Patten, John (Oxford) Wheeler, John
Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick Pattie, Geoffrey Whitelaw, Rt Hon William
Jessel, Toby Pawsey, James Whitney, Raymond
Johnson Smith, Geoffrey Percival, Sir Ian Wickenden, Keith
Jopling, Rt Hon Michael Peyton, Rt Hon John Wiggin, Jerry
Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith Pink, R. Bonner Wilkinson, John
Kaberry, Sir Donald Pollock, Alexander Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Kershaw, Anthony Porter, George Winterton, Nicholas
Kimball, Marcus Price, David (Eastleigh) Wolfson, Mark
King, Rt Hon Tom Prior, Rt Hon James Young, Sir George (Acton)
Kitson, Sir Timothy Proctor, K. Harvey Younger, Rt Hon George
Knight, Mrs Jill Raison, Timothy
Knox, David Rathbone, Tim TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Lamont, Norman Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) Mr. Spencer Le Marchant and
Lang, Ian Rees-Davies, W. R. Mr. Anthony Berry.
Abse, Leo Archer, Rt Hon Peter Barnett, Guy (Greenwich)
Adams, Allen Armstrong, Ernest Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood)
Allaun, Frank Ashton, Joe Beith, A. J.
Alton, David Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood
Anderson, Donald Bagier, Gordon A. T. Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N)
Bidwell, Sydney Grant, John (Islington C) O'Neill, Martin
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Grimond, Rt Hon J. Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Boothroyd, Miss Betty Hamilton, James (Bothwell) Owen, Rt Hon Dr David
Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough) Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Palmer, Arthur
Bradley, Tom Hardy, Peter Park, George
Bray, Dr Jeremy Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Parker, John
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy Parry, Robert
Brown, Robert C. (Newcastle W) Haynes, David Pendry, Tom
Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) Healey, Rt Hon Denis Penhaligon, David
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) Heffer, Eric S. Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Buchan Norman Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire) Prescott, John
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall) Price, Christopher (Lewisham West)
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Home Robertson, John Race, Reg
Campbell, Ian Homewood, William Radice, Giles
Campbell-Savours, Dale Hooley, Frank Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds South)
Canavan, Dennis Horam, John Richardson, Miss Jo
Cant, R. B. Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Carmichael, Neil Howells, Geraint Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Carter-Jones, Lewis Huckfield, Les Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock)
Cartwright, John Hughes, Mark (Durham) Robertson, George
Clark, Dr David (South Shields) Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North) Rodgers, Rt Hon William
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Hughes, Roy (Newport) Rooker, J. W.
Cohen Stanley Janner, Hon Greville Roper, John
Coleman, Donald Jay, Rt Hon Douglas Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. John, Brynmor Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight)
Conlan Bernard Johnson, James (Hull West) Rowlands, Ted
Cook, Robin F. Johnson, Walter (Derby South) Ryman, John
Cowans, Harry Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Sandelson, Neville
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) Jones, Barry (East Flint) Sever, John
Crowther, J. S. Jones, Dan (Burnley) Sheerman, Barry
Cryer, Bob Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A ton-u-I.)
Cunliffe, Lawrence Kerr, Russell Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop)
Cunningham George (Islington S) Kilfedder, James A. Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) Kilroy-Silk, Robert Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich)
Dalyell Tam Kinnock, Neil Silverman, Julius
Davidson, Arthur Lambie, David Skinner, Dennis
Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) Lamborn, Harry Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)
Davies, E. Hudson (Caerphilly) Lamond, James Snape, Peter
Davies, Ifor (Gower) Leadbitter, Ted Soley, Clive
Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central) Leighton, Ronald Spearing, Nigel
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) Lewis, Arthur (Newham North West) Spriggs, Leslie
Deakins, Eric Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) Stallard, A. W.
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Lofthouse, Geoffrey Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles)
Dempsey, James Lyon, Alexander (York) Stoddart, David
Dewar, Donald Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) Stott, Roger
Dixon, Donald Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Strang, Gavin
Dobson, Frank McCartney, Hugh Straw, Jack
Dormand, J. D. McDonald, Dr Oonagh Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce McElhone, Frank Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth)
Dubs, Alfred McGuire, Michael (Ince) Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery)
Duffy, A.E. P. McKay, Allen (Penistone) Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East)
Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale) McKelvey, William Thorne, Stan (Preston South)
Dunnett, Jack MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor Tilley, John
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Maclennan, Robert Tinn, James
Eadie, Alex McMahon, Andrew Torney, Tom
Eastham, Ken McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) Varley, Rt Hon Eric G.
Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) McNally, Thomas Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) McNamara, Kevin Wainwrignt, Richard (Colne Valley)
Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) McWilliam, John Walker, Harold (Doncaster)
Ennals, Rt Hon David Magee, Bryan Watkins, David
Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) Marks, Kenneth Weetch, Ken
Evans, John (Newton) Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) Wellbeloved, James
Ewing, Harry Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Welsh, Michael
Faulds, Andrew Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe)
Field, Frank Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn) White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Fitt, Gerard Mason, Rt Hon Roy Whitehead, Phillip
Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Maynard, Miss Joan Whitlock, William
Foot, Rt Hon Michael Meacher, Michael Willey, Rt Hon Frederick
Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W)
Ford, Ben Mellish, Rt Hon Robert Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington)
Forrester, John Mikardo, Ian Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East)
Foster, Derek Millan, Rt Hon Bruce Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton)
Foulkes, George Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride) Wilson, William (Coventry SE)
Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) Winnick, David
Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) Woodall, Alec
Garrett, John (Norwich S) Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) Woolmer, Kenneth
Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) Wrigglesworth, Ian
George, Bruce Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) Wright, Miss Sheila
Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John Moyle, Rt Hon Roland Young, David (Bolton East)
Ginsburg, David Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick
Golding, John Newens, Stanley TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Gourlay, Harry Oakes, Gordon Mr. Thomas Cox and
Graham, Ted Ogden, Eric Mr. George Morton.
Grant, George (Morpeth) O'Halloran, Michael
Division No. 69] AYES [11.30 p.m.
Allaun, Frank Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) Martin, Michael (Gl'gow, Springb'rn)
Archer, Rt Hon Peter Evans, John (Newton) Maynard, Miss Joan
Ashton, Joe Ewing, Harry Millan, Rt Hon Bruce
Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) Fitt, Gerard Morton, George
Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) Newens, Stanley
Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) Foot, Rt Hon Michael Oakes, Gordon
Booth, Rt Hon Albert Foster, Derek Ogden, Eric
Bray, Dr Jeremy Foulkes, George O'Neill, Martin
Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) George, Bruce Orme, Rt Hon Stanley
Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) Golding, John Parry, Robert
Brown, Ron (Edinburgh, Leith) Graham, Ted Powell, Raymond (Ogmore)
Buchan, Norman Grant, George (Morpeth) Prescott, John
Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) Grant, John (Islington C) Race, Reg
Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) Roberts, Albert (Normanton)
Campbell, Ian Harrison, Rt Hon Walter Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North)
Campbell-Savours, Dale Haynes, David Robertson, George
Canavan, Dennis Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire) Rodgers, Rt Hon William
Carmichael, Neil Holland, Stuart (L'beth, Vauxhall) Rooker, J. W.
Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) Home Robertson, John Roper, John
Cohen, Stanley Hooley, Frank Ross, Ernest (Dundee West)
Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) Rowlands, Ted
Conlan, Bernard Huckfield, Les Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford)
Cook, Robin F. Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North) Skinner, Dennis
Cowans, Harry Jones, Alec (Rhondda) Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire)
Cox, Tom (Wandsworth, Tooting) Jones, Barry (East Flint) Snape, Peter
Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) Kilroy-Silk, Robert Soley, Clive
Cryer, Bob Lambie, David Spearing, Nigel
Cunliffe, Lawrence Lamond, James Stallard, A. W.
Dalyell, Tam Lewis, Arthur (Newham North West) Stott, Roger
Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) Lofthouse, Geoffrey Strang, Gavin
Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) Straw, Jack
Dempsey, James Mabon, Rt Hon Dr J. Dickson Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West)
Dewar, Donald McDonald, Dr Oonagh Tinn, James
Dixon, Donald McElhone, Frank Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne Valley)
Dobson, Frank McKay, Allen (Penistone) Welsh, Michael
Dormand, J. D. McKelvey, William White, James (Glasgow, Pollok)
Douglas-Mann, Bruce Maclennan, Robert Winnick, David
Dubs, Alfred McMahon, Andrew Woodall, Alec
Duffy, A. E. P. McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) Young, David (Bolton East)
Dunn, James A. (Liverpool, Kirkdale) Marks, Kenneth
Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) TELLERS FOR THE AYES:
Eadie, Alex Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) Mr. James Hamilton and
Eastham, Ken Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) Mr. Hugh McCartney.
Alexander, Richard Colvin, Michael Heath, Rt Hon Edward
Alison, Michael Cope, John Heddle, John
Ancram, Michael Cranborne, Viscount Henderson, Barry
Arnold, Tom Crouch, David Hicks, Robert
Aspinwall, Jack Dodsworth, Geoffrey Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham)
Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James Hooson, Tom
Atkins, Robert (Preston North) Dover, Denshore Hordern, Peter
Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) Dunn, Robert (Dartford) Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey
Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) Dykes, Hugh Howells, Geraint
Beaumont-Dark, Anthony Eden, Rt Hon Sir John Hurd, Hon Douglas
Beith, A. J. Emery, Peter Jopling, Rt Hon Michael
Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) Fairbairn, Nicholas Kilfedder, James A.
Berry, Hon Anthony Fairgrieve, Russell King, Rt Hon Tom
Best, Keith Faith, Mrs Sheila Kitson, Sir Timothy
Bevan, David Gilroy Fenner, Mrs Peggy Knight, Mrs Jill
Biggs-Davison, John Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) Knox, David
Blackburn, John Fox, Marcus Lang, Ian
Bonsor, Sir Nicholas Fraser, Peter (South Angus) Langford-Holt, Sir John
Boscawen, Hon Robert Gardiner, George (Reigate) Lawrence, Ivan
Boyson, Dr Rhodes Garel-Jones, Tristan Le Marchant, Spencer
Braine, Sir Bernard Goodhart, Philip Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark
Bright, Graham Gorst, John Lester, Jim (Beeston)
Brinton, Timothy Gow, Ian Lloyd, Peter (Fareham)
Brooke, Hon Peter Gower, Sir Raymond Loveridge, John
Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) Luce, Richard
Bruce-Gardyne, John Grist, Ian Lyell, Nicholas
Butcher, John Grylls, Michael Macfarlane, Neil
Cadbury, Jocelyn Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) Mackay, John (Argyll)
Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) Hampson, Dr Keith McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury)
Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) Hannam, John Major, John
Chapman, Sydney Haselhurst, Alan Marlow, Antony
Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) Hawkins, Paul Mates, Michael
Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) Hawksley, Warren Maude, Rt Hon Angus
Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin Rees-Davies, W. R. Tebbit, Norman
Meyer, Sir Anthony Renton, Tim Temple-Morris, Peter
Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) Rhodes James, Robert Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret
Mills, Iain (Meriden) Rifkind, Malcolm Thompson, Donald
Moate, Roger Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) Thorne, Neil (Ilford South)
Montgomery, Fergus Roberts, Wyn (Conway) Thornton, George
Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) Trippier, David
Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) Rost, Peter Waddington, David
Murphy, Christopher Sainsbury, Hon Timothy Wakeham, John
Myles, David St. John Stevas, Rt Hon Norman Waldegrave, Hon William
Nelson, Anthony Shelton, William (Streatham) Waller, Gary
Neubert, Michael Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) Ward, John
Newton, Tony Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills) Watson, John
Onslow, Cranley Silvester, Fred Wells, P. Bowen (Hert'rd&Stev'nage)
Osborn, John Skeet, T. H. H. Wheeler, John
Page, John (Harrow, West) Speed, Keith Wickenden, Keith
Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) Speller, Tony Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery)
Parkinson, Cecil Spence, John Wolfson, Mark
Parris, Matthew Sproat, Iain Young, Sir George (Acton)
Patten, John (Oxford) Squire, Robin Younger, Rt Hon George
Penhaligon, David Stanbrook, Ivor
Pollock, Alexander Stevens, Martin TELLERS FOR THE NOES:
Porter, George Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) Mr. Carol Mather and
Proctor, K. Harvey Stradling Thomas, J. Mr. John MacGregor.
Rathbone, Tim

Question accordingly negatived.