§ Again considered in Committee.
§ Question again proposed, That the amendment be made.
1503§ Mr. Alexander W. LyonI have been trying to do the sum posed by the Minister of State. On the basis of the information that he gave us, does it not mean that on a 10p increase per gallon the reduction in consumption will be minuscule? Does that not undermine some of the arguments for introducing a 10p increase?
Mr. ReesI congratulate the hon. Gentleman, but I should prefer not to respond to his figures. I will look at it more carefully if he wishes and write to him about it. I would not trust my own mathematics or faculties at this hour of the night.
It was inevitable that someone in this debate would ask how a rather similar debate was conducted a little more than two years ago, on 4 April 1977, when the right hon. Member for Leeds, East proposed increases in petrol duty. Liberal Members evidently detect a faint inconsistency between the position of the Conservative Party now and then. Let me endeavour to reassure hon. Gentlemen, if I can, by reading a short passage from Hansard of 9 May 1977, quoting from a speech by my right hon. and learned Friend now the Chancellor of the Exchequer:
The Government have pre-eminently selected the wrong mix to bring before the House. We are not asking for motorists and petrol prices to be exempted altogether from the burden of indirect taxation. That would be to go back a long way. Nor do we ask that they should be exempt from the burden of taxation in a general switch from direct to indirect taxation. However the Government have brought forward a package in which motorists have been selected as the special victims of the switch. …"—[Official Report, 9 May 1977; Vol. 931, c. 990.]Hon. Members will see at once, therefore, the basis on which we can distinguish what we propose today and what was proposed by the right hon. Member for Leeds, East on that occasion. I hope that that goes some way to reassure my hon. Friend the Member for New Forest (Mr. NcNairWilson), who has a long and honourable record of opposition to increases in petrol duties. He will realise that the situation is not precisely the same and perhaps he will be able to reconsider his position on this occasion, recognising that we have not singled out motorists for a swingeing impost. It is part of a calculated shift from direct to indirect taxation.1504 I am tempted, though I do not think that the Committee would bear with me, to recall what the right hon. Member for Leeds, East said on that occasion. I could have quoted him almost word for word and that would, I believe, have supported what we are attempting to do now.
The hon. Member for West Lothian (Mr. Dalyell), courteous as always, asked me another question. I am always staggered by the range of his interest and knowledge. On this occasion we move from the corruption of the stone facades of West Lothian to the distribution of oil. I hope that the hon. Member will not think me discourteous if I do not respond to the question, which falls more within the responsibilities of my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Energy. I do not think that I could do justice to the question, nor, if he will allow me to say so, is it directly relevant to the proposals that we are debating.
§ Mr. DalyellIt was a question that was put by no fewer than four Members, on both sides of the House, during the debate. I repeat that it is of great urgency to those of us who represent country areas.
Mr. ReesI entirely appreciate the motives that led the hon. Gentleman to put the question to me and led other hon. Members to raise it. I would only plead that my responsibilities are rather more limited. I am sure that my right hon. Friend will take note of the important points that have been made, and I do not doubt that the hon. Gentleman would prefer a more authoritative answer from my right hon. Friend to a perhaps not entirely considered response from somebody who has no particular responsibilities in that respect.
I return now to the amendments. The amendment moved for the Liberal Party by the right hon. Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles is rather tentative. If Liberal Members are enamoured of the idea of indexation, I suggest that they should look with more favour on the Government's proposals, since they go a little further down that route than their amendment No. 7 does.
As for amendment No. 23 and new clause 10, spoken to so persuasively by the hon. Member for Gateshead, West, I 1505 suggest that the hon. Gentleman is perhaps following the interest that he pursued when at the Department of Transport and that on this occasion what we propose will be of more advantage to the country. Of course, it does not rule out proper consideration of a diminution or phasing out of vehicle excise duty, but it will be more to the advantage of the country as a whole, and of motorists in particular, for the Committee to approve 1506 the increases proposed by the Government instead of the rather tenuous proposals embodied in amendment No. 23 and new clause 10.
On that basis, I hope that the hon. Gentleman will not be disposed to press his amendment to a Division, recognising that there will be an opportunity to consider all these issues again when my right hon. Friend has completed his review of the vehicle excise duty.
§ Mr. HoramFirst, on a procedural point, Mr. Crawshaw, I hope that it will be possible to have a separate vote on amendment No. 23 after we have voted on the Liberal amendment No. 7.
As for the general tenor of the Minister's remarks, I can only say that he has not answered the central case which we have advanced. The point of that case is that it is wrong to impose this gratuitous tax increase when world prices are moving up as quickly as they are at the moment. Irrespective of the Budget increase, we had an increse, in effect, of 35p in the price of four-star petrol in this country over the past six months. The Government have now imposed a further increase of 10p of their own accord.
The Government argue that they are doing that to cut back demand. Indeed, this was the point made by the Prime Minister in response to my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition earlier this week. But our argument is that OPEC is already doing that job for them. Moreover, this point has been made not just from these Benches. It was made by the hon. Member for New Forest (Mr. McNair-Wilson) and by other hon. Members on the Government side. OPEC is doing the job without further help from the British Government.
The pretentious of this tax to be a conservation measure are bogus. It is simply a revenue-raising measure, and as such it is on all fours with the increase in VAT to 15 per cent. It is made necessary by the Government's commitment to cut income tax by 3p in the pound. That is the logic of their position and that is how it remains.
It is a harsh impost. It will hit the poor. As was said by many hon. Members on both sides, the business man will not be affected by the increase. The persons most affected will be those who have no alternative but to go by car to work. They will be the heaviest sufferers from an impost of this kind. Moreover, it will fuel inflation and it will steepen recession. And it will do all these things without even fitting into the Government's philosophy, because, as the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) pointed out, it is not even an application 1508 of market forces; it is an interference with market forces.
I believe, therefore, that what the Government have done will begin to mobilise the men of this country against them, just as the VAT increases have mobilised the women. I am not surprised that this Government's political honeymoon has been the shortest in post-war history. The Minister of State has declined to reconsider his position on this tax, which many hon. Members on both sides have asked him to do, and we must therefore vote for amendment No. 23.
§ Mr. Richard Wainwright (Colne Valley)There are many topics debated in the House of Commons that illustrate the dangers and sometimes the hollow futility of adversary politics, but no subject illustrates the dangers and futility more than debates on petrol duties. During the past 35 years, for example, the alternating parties in Government have increased petrol duties only to be hotly opposed by the alternating parties in Opposition. Each party has in turn used virtually the same arguments against the adversary party. Tonight is no exception. I do not accept for a moment the Minister of State's claim that his action in increasing petrol duties this year is wholly consistent with the Conservative Party's opposition to Labour's increase of petrol duties in 1977.
The Minister of State had the cheek to say that in 1977 the Conservative Party objected to the motorist being singled out for punishment. However, that is exactly what the Government have done this year. There was no increase proposed in the excise duties on alcohol or tobacco—merely a heavy increase in the excise duty on petrol. One of the many ways in which we could reduce the sham of adversary politics would be to make provision for automatic indexation of the specific excise duties that my right hon. Friend the Member for Roxburgh, Selkirk and Peebles (Mr. Steel) emphasised when introducing amendment No. 7.
The Minister of State, who has a reputation for impudence in this Chamber, made the extraordinary statement that the Government were making a meritorious revalorisation of the petrol duties. That is to sidestep the whole argument of automatic provision for indexation according to a strict formula. 1509 The Government thought of a number, increased revenue and blamed revalorisation. That is a worthless argument. The Minister of State seeks to dress up the 10p increase as a revalorisation. The hon. and learned Gentleman thought of the number first and the excuse of re-valorisation subsequently.
The debate has been valuable in smoking out completely the false attribute claimed in the Budget Statement for this savage increase. It was claimed to be a meritorious, virtuous and pious weapon, designed to reduce consumption. I am sure that we are all indebted to the right hon. Member for Down, South (Mr. Powell) for effectively wiping out that argument. The right hon. Gentleman reduced the Minister to the feeble defence that perhaps market forces would reduce the consumption of petrol sufficiently, but at least this year's increase in duty would help to do it rather more quickly.
If that is the Government's defence of the 10p increase, it seems that the increase is merely an acceleration in the time scale of the reduction in demand. It follows logically that next year they will remove the temporary accelerator, as it will not be needed. According to the Government's gospel, market forces will have caught up, aided by the temporary boost that they claim skilfully to have introduced into the Budget. I hope that we can look forward confidently to the removal of the impost next year.
10.15 p.m.
As my right hon. Friend made clear, the amendment is based on the principle of automatic indexation. We argue that the additional revenue should be gained by the indexation of the specific excises on alcohol and tobacco. We tabled the amendment confident in the knowledge that the Treasury team, when in Opposition, was a group of fervent advocates of indexing the whole tax system. I do not wish to weary the Committee with more than one quotation, but regardless of the wishes of Conservative Members—I am sure that they know how embarrassing my quotation will be—they will get one.
§
On 25 July the hon. Member for Blaby (Mr. Lawson), who was one of the Shadow Treasury team, said:
I have time and again consistently stated that I am in favour of the same form of indexation being applied to specific duties. I have made no secret of it. If my hon. Friend will read the speech I made in the Budget debate, he will see that I dealt in specific terms with the"—
indexation of the—
petrol duty. If my hon. Friend will read the speeches of our right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Surrey, East (Sir G. Howe)
—the Shadow Chancellor—
he will see that for some time he has been making powerful speeches pointing out the evils of an unindexed tax system."—[Official Report, 25 July 1977; Vol. 936, c. 109.]
I was disappointed that exactly a week ago tonight in the debate on the Second Reading of the Finance Bill the Minister of State, although he could not deny his colleagues' enthusiasm for indexation, took refuge in an obscure sentence. He said:
Formal indexation would create technical difficulties, and perhaps we can deal with that subject in Committee."—[Official Report, 27 June 1979; Vol. 969, c. 577.]
I took the precaution of reminding the Minister of State of that by letter earlier this afternoon, yet tonight he refuses to return to the subject in Committee. He made an extraordinary excuse that we had spent a long time on this subject in Committee and that there was no time to go into the offer that he made a week ago. I hope that the Minister of State, on reflection, will feel that we are entitled to some amends for his extraordinary behaviour. The House and its procedures would benefit enormously from the automatic indexation of the various specific excise duties, just as it benefited enormously from the successful Rooker-Wise amendment for the automatic indexation of the personal allowances for income tax. The Liberal amendment proposes such an indexation. On those grounds, I commend it to the Committee.
§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 37, Noes 295.
1513| Division No. 43] | AYES | [10.18 p.m. |
| Allaun, Frank | Carter-Jones, Lewis | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) |
| Alton, David | Clark, David (South Shields) | Forrester, John |
| Anderson, Donald | Conlan, Bernard | Grimond, Rt Hon J. |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Cryer, Bob | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Canavan, Dennis | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Howells, Geraint |
| Johnston, Russell (Inverness) | Newens, Stanley | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Kilfedder, James A. | Prescott, John | Weetch, Ken |
| Kilroy-Silk, Robert | Robert, Gwilym (Cannock) | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Lambie, David | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East) |
| Lamond, James | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | |
| Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) | Skinner, Dennis | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Mckelvey, William | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles) | Mr. A. J. Beith and |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) | Mr. David Penhaligon. |
| Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Torney, Tom | |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Lamont, Norman |
| Aitken, Johathan | Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Lang, Ian |
| Alexander, Richard | Durant, Tony | Langford-Holt, Sir John |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Dykes, Hugh | Latham, Michael |
| Ancram, Michael | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Lawrence, Ivan |
| Arnold, Tom | Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) | Lawson, Nigel |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Eggar, Timothy | Lee, John |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Elliott, Sir William | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Atkins, Robert (Preston North) | Emery, Peter | Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark |
| Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) | Eyre, Reginald | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Fairgrieve, Russell | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) | Faith, Mrs Sheila | Lloyd, Ian (Havant & Waterloo) |
| Banks, Robert | Fell, Anthony | Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Loveridge, John |
| Bell, Ronald | Finsberg, Geoffrey | Luce, Richard |
| Bendall, Vivian | Fisher, Sir Nigel | Lyell, Nicholas |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) | McCrindle, Robert |
| Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Fookes, Miss Janet | MacGregor, John |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Forman, Nigel | MacKay, John (Argyll) |
| Best, Keith | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Fox, Marcus | McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) | McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Fry, Peter | McQuarrie, Albert |
| Blackburn, John | Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. | Madel, David |
| Blaker, Peter | Gardiner, George (Reigate) | Major, John |
| Body, Richard | Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) | Marland, Paul |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian | Marlow, Tony |
| Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) | Glyn, Dr Alan | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Bowden, Andrew | Goodhart, Philip | Marten, Neil (Banbury) |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Goodlad, Alastair | Mates, Michael |
| Bright, Graham | Gorst, John | Mather, Carol |
| Brinton, Tim | Gower, Sir Raymond | Maude, Rt Hon Angus |
| Brittan, Leon | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Mawby, Ray |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Gray, Hamish | Mawhinney, Dr Brian |
| Brooker, Hon Peter | Grieve, Percy | Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin |
| Brotherton, Michael | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) | Mayhew, Patrick |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) | Mellor, David |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Grist, Ian | Meyer, Sir Anthony |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Grylls, Michael | Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Gummer, John Selwyn | Mills, Peter (West Devon) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) | Miscampbell, Norman |
| Buck, Antony | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) |
| Budgen, Nick | Hampson, Dr Keith | Monro, Hector |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Hannam, John | Montgomery, Fergus |
| Burden, F. A. | Haselhurst, Alan | Moore, John |
| Butcher, John | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | Morgan, Geraint |
| Butler, Hon Adam | Hawksley, Warren | Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) |
| Cadbury, Jocelyn | Heddle, John | Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) |
| Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Henderson, Barry | Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) |
| Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Hicks, Robert | Mudd, David |
| Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) | Hingins, Rt Hon Terence L. | Murphy, Christopher |
| Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Hill, James | Myles, David |
| Channon, Paul | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) | Neale, Gerrard |
| Chapman, Sydney | Holland, Philip (Carlton) | Neubert, Michael |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hooson, Tom | Newton, Tony |
| Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Hordern, Peter | Normanton, Tom |
| Clark, Dr William (Craydon South) | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey | Nott, Rt Hon John |
| Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) | Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally |
| Cockeram, Eric | Hunt, David (Wirral) | Osborn, John |
| Colvin, Michael | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Page, John (Harrow, West) |
| Cormack, Patrick | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) |
| Corrie, John | Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Parkinson, Cecil |
| Costain, A. P. | Jessel, Toby | Parris, Matthew |
| Cranborne, Viscount | Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Patten, Christopher (Bath) |
| Critchey, Julian | Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Patten, John (Oxford) |
| Crouch, David | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Pattie, Geoffrey |
| Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Kaberry, Sir Donald | Pawsey, James |
| Dickens, Geoffrey | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Percival, Sir Ian |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Kimball, Marcus | Pollock, Alexander |
| Dorrell, Stephen | King, Rt Hon Tom | Porter, George |
| Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Kitson, Sir Timothy | Price, David (Eastleigh) |
| Dover, Denshore | Knox, David | Proctor, K. Harvey |
| Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Speed, Keith | Viggers, Peter |
| Raison, Timothy | Speller, Tony | Waddington, David |
| Rathbone, Tim | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) | Wakeham, John |
| Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| Rees-Davies, W. R. | Sproat, Iain | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Renton, Tim | Squire, Robin | Wall, Patrick |
| Rhodes James, Robert | Stainton, Keith | Waller, Gary |
| Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Stanbrook, Ivor | Walters, Dennis |
| Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Stanley, John | Ward, John |
| Ridsdale, Julian | Steen, Anthony | Watson, John |
| Rifkind, Malcolm | Stevens, Martin | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) | Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage) |
| Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) | Wheeler, John |
| Rossi, Hugh | Stokes, John | Whitney, Raymond |
| Rost, Peter | Stradling Thomas, J. | Wickenden, Keith |
| Royle, Sir Anthony | Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW) | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Tebbit, Norman | Wilkinson, John |
| St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Normar | Temple-Morris, Peter | Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery) |
| Scott, Nicholas | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Thompson, Donald | Wolfson, Mark |
| Shelton, William (Streatham) | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | Thornton, Malcolm | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'hills) | Townend, John (Bridlington) | |
| Shersby, Michael | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Silvester, Fred | Trippier, David | Mr. John Cope and |
| Skeet, T. H. H. | Trotter, Neville | Mr. Robert Boscawen |
| Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Amendment proposed: No. 23, in page 2, line 31, leave out '£0.0810' and insert '£0.0735'.—[Mr. Horam.]
1514§ Question put, That the amendment be made:—
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 251, Noes 299.
1517| Division No.44] | AYES | [10.30 p.m. |
| Abse, Leo | Davidson, Arthur | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) |
| Adams, Allen | Davies, Rt Hon Denzil (Llanelli) | Hardy, Peter |
| Allaun, Frank | Davies, E. Hudson (Caerphilly) | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter |
| Alton, David | Davies, Ifor (Gower) | Hart, Rt Hon Dame Judith |
| Anderson, Donald | Davis, Clinton (Hackney Central) | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy |
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Davis, Terry (B'rm'ham, Stechford) | Haynes, Frank |
| Armstrong, Rt Hon Ernest | Deakins, Eric | Healey, Rt Hon Denis |
| Ashton, Joe | Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Heffer, Eric S. |
| Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott'ham) | Dempsey, James | Hogg, Norman (E Dunbartonshire) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Dixon, Donald | Home Robertson, John |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Dobson, Frank | Homewood, William |
| Barnett, Rt Hon Joel (Heywood) | Dormand, Jack | Hooley, Frank |
| Beith, A. J. | Douglas, Dick | Horam, John |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Dubs, Alfred | Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm'H) |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Duffy, A. E. P. | Howells, Geraint |
| Bidwell. Sydney | Dunlop, John | Huckfield, Les |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Dunnett, Jack | Hughes, Mark (Durham) |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen North) |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur (M'brough) | Eastham, Ken | Hughes, Roy (Newport) |
| Bradley, Tom | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Janner, Hon Greville |
| Bray, Dr Jeremy | Ellis, Raymond (NE Derbyshire) | Jay, Rt Hon Douglas |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | John, Brynmor |
| Brown, Ronald W. (Hackney S) | Ennals, Rt Hon David | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Buchan, Norman | Evans, Ioan (Aberdare) | Johnston, Russell (Inverness) |
| Callaghan, Rt Hon J. (Cardiff SE) | Evans, John (Newton) | Jones, Rt Hon Alec (Rhondda) |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Ewing, Harry | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Campbell, Ian | Field, Frank | Jones, Dan (Burnley) |
| Campbell-Savours, Dale | Fitch, Alan | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Canavan, Dennis | Flannery, Martin | Kerr, Russell |
| Cant, R. B. | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Kilfedder, James A. |
| Carmichael, Neil | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Carter-Jones, Lewis | Ford, Ben | Kinnock, Neil |
| Cartwright, John | Forrester, John | Lambie, David |
| Clark, David (South Shields) | Foster, Derek | Lamborn, Harry |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Foulkes, George | Lamond, James |
| Cohen, Stanley | Fraser, John (Lambeth, Norwood) | Leadbitter, Ted |
| Coleman, Donald | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | Leighton, Ronald |
| Concannon, Rt Hon J. D. | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) |
| Conlan, Bernard | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Cook, Robin F. | George, Bruce | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Cowans, Harry | Gilbert, Rt Hon Dr John | Lyon, Alexander (York) |
| Craigen, J. M. (Glasgow, Maryhill) | Ginsburg, David | Lyons, Edward (Bradford West) |
| Crowther, J. S. | Golding, John | McCartney, Hugh |
| Cryer, Bob | Gourlay, Harry | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Cunliffe, Lawrence | Graham, Ted | McElhone, Frank |
| Cunningham, George (Islington S) | Grant, John (Islington C) | McGuire, Michael (Ince) |
| Cunningham, Dr John (Whitehaven) | Grimond, Rt Hon J. | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Dalyell, Tam | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | McKelvey, William |
| MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor | Parry, Robert | Stott, Roger |
| Maclennan, Robert | Penhaligon, David | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley |
| McMahon, Andrew | Powell, Rt Hon J. Enoch (S Down) | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton West) |
| McMillan, Tom (Glasgow, Central) | Powell, Raymond (Ogmore) | Thomas, Dafydd (Merioneth) |
| McNally, Thomas | Prescott, John | Thomas, Jeffrey (Abertillery) |
| McWilliam, John | Price, Christopher (Lewisham West) | Thomas, Mike (Newcastle East) |
| Magee, Bryan | Race, Reg | Thomas, Dr Roger (Carmarthen) |
| Marks, Kenneth | Radice, Giles | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) |
| Marshall, David (Gl'sgow, Shettles'n) | Richardson, Miss Jo | Tilley, John |
| Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) | Roberts, Ernest (Hackney North) | Torney, Tom |
| Marshall, Jim (Leicester South) | Roberts, Gwilym (Cannock) | U-win, Rt Hon Tom |
| Martin, Michael (Gl'gow. Springb'rn) | Robertson, George | Varley, Rt Hon Eric G. |
| Maxton, John | Rodgers, Rt Hon William | Wainwright, Richard (Colne Valley) |
| Maynard, Miss Joan | Rooker, J. W. | Walker, Rt Hon Harold (Doncaster) |
| Meacher, Michael | Ross, Ernest (Dundee West) | Watkins, David |
| Mellish, Rt Hon Robert | Ross, Stephen (Isle of Wight) | Weetch, Ken |
| Mikardo, Ian | Ross, Wm. (Londonderry) | Wellbeloved, James |
| Millan, Rt Hon Bruce | Rowlands, Ted | Welsh, Michael |
| Miller, Dr M. S. (East Kilbride) | Ryman, John | White, Frank R. (Bury & Radcliffe) |
| Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) | Sandelson, Neville | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Mitchell, R. C. (Soton, Itchen) | Sever, John | Whitlock, William |
| Molyneaux, James | Sheerman, Barry | Wigley, Dafyd |
| Morris, Rt Hon Alfred (Wythenshawe) | Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert (A'ton-u-L) | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Morris, Rt Hon Charles (Openshaw) | Shore, Rt Hon Peter (Step and Pop) | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Morris, Rt Hon John (Aberavon) | Silkin, Rt Hon John (Deptford) | Williams, Sir Thomas (Warrington) |
| Moyle, Rt Hon Roland | Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) | Wilson, Gordon (Dundee East) |
| Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick | Silverman, Julius | Wilson, Rt Hon Sir Harold (Huyton) |
| Newens, Stanley | Skinner, Dennis | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Oakes, Rt Hon Gordon | Smith, Rt Hon J. (North Lanarkshire) | Winnick, David |
| Ogden Eric | Snape, Peter | Woolmer, Kenneth |
| O'Halloran, Michael | Soley, Clive | Wrigglesworth, Ian |
| O'Neill, Martin | Spearing, Nigel | Wright, Sheila |
| Orme, Rt Hon Stanley | Spriggs, Leslie | Young, David (Bolton East) |
| Owen, Rt Hon Dr David | Stallard, A. W. | |
| Palmer, Arthur | Steel, Rt Hon David | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Park, George | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald (W Isles) | Mr. George Morton and |
| Parker, John | Stoddart, David | Mr. Thomas Cox |
| NOES | ||
| Adley, Robert | Burden, F. A. | Fletcher, Alexander (Edinburgh N) |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Butcher, John | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles |
| Alexander, Richard | Butler, Hon Adam | Fookes, Miss Janet |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Cadbury, Jocelyn | Forman, Nigel |
| Ancram, Michael | Carlisle, John (Luton West) | Fowler, Rt Hon Norman |
| Arnold, Tom | Carlisle, Kenneth (Lincoln) | Fox, Marcus |
| Aspinwall, Jack | Carlisle, Rt Hon Mark (Runcorn) | Fraser, Peter (South Angus) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Chalker, Mrs. Lynda | Fry, Peter |
| Atkins, Robert (Preston North) | Channon, Paul | Galbraith, Hon T. G. D. |
| Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) | Chapman, Sydney | Gardiner, George (Reigate) |
| Baker, Kenneth (St. Marylebone) | Churchill, W. S. | Gardner, Edward (South Fylde) |
| Baker, Nicholas (North Dorset) | Clark, Hon Alan (Plymouth, Sutton) | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian |
| Banks, Robert | Clark, Dr William (Croydon South) | Glyn, Dr Alan |
| Beaumont-Dark, Anthony | Clarke, Kenneth (Rushcliffe) | Goodhart, Philip |
| Bell, Ronald | Clegg, Walter | Goodlad, Alastair |
| Bendell, Vivian | Cockeram, Eric | Gorst, John |
| Bennett, Sir Frederic (Torbay) | Colvin, Michael | Gow, Ian |
| Benyon, Thomas (Abingdon) | Cormack, Patrick | Gower, Sir Raymond |
| Benyon, W. (Buckingham) | Corrie, John | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Costain, A. P. | Gray, Hamish |
| Best, Keith | Cranborne, Viscount | Grieve, Percy |
| Bevan, David Gilroy | Critchley, Julian | Griffiths, Eldon (Bury St Edmunds) |
| Biffen, Rt Hon John | Crouch, David | Griffiths, Peter (Portsmouth N) |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Dean, Paul (North Somerset) | Grist, Ian |
| Blackburn, John | Dickens, Geoffrey | Grylls, Michael |
| Blaker, Peter | Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Gummer, John Selwyn |
| Body, Richard | Dorrell, Stephen | Hamilton, Hon Archie (Eps'm&Ew'll) |
| Bonsor, Sir Nicholas | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Hamilton, Michael (Salisbury) |
| Bottomley, Peter (Woolwich West) | Dover, Denshore | Hampson, Dr Keith |
| Bowden, Andrew | du Cann, Rt Hon Edward | Hannam, John |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes | Dunn, Robert (Dartford) | Haselhurst, Alan |
| Bright, Graham | Durant, Tony | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael |
| Brinton, Tim | Dykes, Hugh | Hawksley, Warren |
| Brittan, Leon | Eden, Rt Hon Sir John | Hayhoe, Barney |
| Brocklebank-Fowler, Christopher | Edwards, Rt Hon N. (Pembroke) | Heddle, John |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Egger, Timothy | Henderson, Barry |
| Brotherton, Michael | Elliott, Sir William | Hicks, Robert |
| Brown, Michael (Brigg & Sc'thorpe) | Emery, Peter | Higgins, Rt Hon Terence L. |
| Browne, John (Winchester) | Eyre, Reginald | Hill, James |
| Bruce-Gardyne, John | Fairgrieve, Russell | Hogg, Hon Douglas (Grantham) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Faith, Mrs Sheila | Holland, Philip (Carlton) |
| Buchanan-Smith, Hon Alick | Fell, Anthony | Hooson, Tom |
| Buck, Antony | Fenner, Mrs Peggy | Hordern, Peter |
| Budgen, Nick | Finsberg, Geoffrey | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Fisher, Sir Nigel | Howell, Ralph (North Norfolk) |
| Hunt, David (Wirral) | Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Skeet, T. H. H. |
| Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) | Monro, Hector | Smith, Dudley (War. and Leam'ton) |
| Jenkin, Rt Hon Patrick | Montgomery, Fergus | Speed, Keith |
| Jessel, Toby | Moore, John | Speller, Tony |
| Johnson Smith, Geoffrey | Morgan, Geraint | Spicer, Jim (West Dorset) |
| Jopling, Rt Hon Michael | Morris, Michael (Northampton, Sth) | Spicer, Michael (S Worcestershire) |
| Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith | Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) | Sproat, Iain |
| Kaberry, Sir Donald | Morrison, Hon Peter (City of Chester) | Squire, Robin |
| Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine | Mudd, David | Stainton, Keith |
| Kimball, Marcus | Murphy, Christopher | Stanbrook, Ivor |
| King, Rt Hon Tom | Myles, David | Stanley, John |
| Kitson, Sir Timothy | Neale, Gerrard | Steen, Anthony |
| Knox, David | Neubert, Michael | Stevens, Martin |
| Lamont, Norman | Newton, Tony | Stewart, Ian (Hitchin) |
| Lang, Ian | Normanton, Tom | Stewart, John (East Renfrewshire) |
| Langford-Holt, Sir John | Nott, Rt Hon John | Stokes, John |
| Latham, Michael | Oppenheim, Rt Hon Mrs Sally | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Lawrence, Ivan | Osborn, John | Taylor, Robert (Croydon NW) |
| Lawson, Nigel | Page, John (Harrow, West) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Lee, John | Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Le Merchant, Spencer | Parkinson, Cecil | Thatcher, Rt Hon Mrs Margaret |
| Lennox-Boyd, Hon Mark | Parris, Matthew | Thomas, Rt Hon Peter (Hendon S) |
| Lester, Jim (Beeston) | Patten, Christopher (Bath) | Thompson, Donald |
| Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) | Patten, John (Oxford) | Thorne, Neil (Ilford South) |
| Lloyd, fan (Havant & Waterloo) | Pattie, Geoffrey | Thornton, Malcolm |
| Lloyd, Peter (Fareham) | Pawsey, James | Townend, John (Bridlington) |
| Loveridge, John | Percival, Sir Ian | Townsend, Cyril D. (Bexleyheath) |
| Luce, Richard | Pollock, Alexander | Trippier, David |
| Lyell, Nicholas | Porter, George | Trotter Neville |
| McCrindle, Robert | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Vaughan, Dr Gerard |
| Macfarlane, Neil | Proctor, K. Harvey | Viggers, Peter |
| MacGregor, John | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Waddington, David |
| MacKay, John (Argyll) | Raison, Timothy | Wakeham, John |
| Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) | Rathbone, Tim | Waldegrave, Hon William |
| McNair-Wilson, Michael (Newbury) | Rees, Peter (Dover and Deal) | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| McNair-Wilson, Patrick (New Forest) | Rees-Davies, W. R. | Wall, Patrick |
| McOuarrie, Albert | Renton, Tim | Waller, Gary |
| Madel, David | Rhodes James, Robert | Walters, Dennis |
| Major, John | Rhys Williams, Sir Brandon | Ward, John |
| Marland, Paul | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Watson, John |
| Marlow, Tony | Ridsdale, Julian | Wells, John (Maidstone) |
| Marshall, Michael (Arundel) | Rifkind, Malcolm | Wells, Bowen (Hert'rd & Stev'nage) |
| Marten, Neil (Banbury) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Wheeler, John |
| Mates, Michael | Roberts, Wyn (Conway) | Whitney, Raymond |
| Mather, Carol | Rossi, Hugh | Wickenden, Keith |
| Maude, Rt Hon Angus | Rost, Peter | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Mawby, Ray | Royle, Sir Anthony | Wilkinson, John |
| Mawhinney, Dr Brian | Sainsbury, Hon Timothy | Williams, Delwyn (Montgomery) |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | St. John-Stevas, Rt Hon Normam | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Scott, Nicholas | Wolfson, Mark |
| Mellor, David | Shaw, Michael (Scarborough) | Young, Sir George (Acton) |
| Meyer, Sir Anthony | Shelton, William (Streatham) | Younger, Rt Hon George |
| Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove & Redditch) | Shepherd, Colin (Hereford) | |
| Mills, Iain (Meriden) | Shepherd, Richard (Aldridge-Br'bills) | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Mills, Peter (West Devon) | Shersby, Michael | Mr. Robert Boscawen and |
| Miscampbell, Norman | Silvester, Fred | Mr. John Cope. |
§ Question accordingly negatived.
§ Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
§ Mr. Charles R. Morris (Manchester, Openshaw)I seek elucidation from the Minister of State about the impact that the clause may have on domestic users of oil for central heating purposes. Those with oil-burning central heating systems may have been encouraged when the Chancellor of the Exchequer said in his Budget Statement:
I am not, however, increasing the duty for burning oil and for domestic paraffin, which is the oil used most commonly in the home, particularly by pensioners."—[Official Report, 12 June 1979; Vol. 968, c. 254.]However, in the brief issued by the Treasury, that undertaking was interpreted to mean, in terms of clause 2, that 1518 the exception for the increase in duty is that kerosenes that include domestic paraffin and over two-thirds of oil that is normally used for domestic central heating are exempt.Does it follow that one-third will bear the impost envisaged by the tax changes? Will the Minister indicate the burden that will be imposed on householders who have domestic oil-fired central heating systems? It should be borne in mind that those luckless householders have carried a burden of continuing increases in the cost of oil for domestic central heating over the past 12 or 18 months.
10.45 p.m.
A report in today's edition of The Sun indicates that these families might not he in a position to receive any such 1519 fuel during the forthcoming winter. It refers to warnings issued by Britain's oil distributors who have told the Minister of State, Department of Energy that shortages in paraffin and heating oil are more critical than the squeeze on petrol. Those householders could be affected if my interpretation of clause 2 is correct. Therefore, I should be grateful if the Minister could clear up that matter.
Will oil for central heating purposes be increased as a result of the clause? I hope that the Minister will bear in mind that many householders are obliged to use oil because they live in geographically isolated areas where other forms of heating are not immediately available.
§ Mr. Peter ReesI shall respond briefly to the right hon. Gentleman's comments. The clause increases the duty on heavy oil that is not used as road fuel and furnace fuel that is used by approved persons from 0.55p per litre, or 2.5p per gallon, to 0.66p per litre, or 3p per gallon. The increase in kerosene applies only to aviation turbine fuel. The duty on other kerosene remains at 0.22p per litre, or 1p per gallon. I cannot be more specific, because various sorts of heating use various sorts of fuel. I hope that that answers with sufficient particularity the hon. Gentleman's point.
§ Mr. Charles R. MorrisThe Minister's statement will not have encouraged householders with oil-fired central heating. I am not concerned for the affluent, but I am concerned for the lower-income householders who have already borne an increasing financial burden.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Clause 2 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ Clause 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
§ To report Progress and ask leave to sit again.—[Mr. Biffen.]
§ Committee report Progress; to sit again tomorrow.