HC Deb 25 January 1979 vol 961 cc684-94
Mr. Peyton

(by private notice) asked the Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food if, despite the continued and widespread blockading of the ports, the interference with the movement of foods for people and animals, particularly in Merseyside, North Humberside, Avonmouth and Tilbury, the growing shortage of packaging materials, and the steady emptying of the pipeline, he is still satisfied that there is no serious threat to supplies of food for people and animals, and if he will make a statement.

The Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food (Mr. John Silkin)

The position at the ports since I last spoke to the House on Monday is as follows: there have been improvements in Northern Ireland, South Humberside, Sheerness and Southampton; there has been some improvement also at Tilbury, and a major improvement at Put-fleet, which is especially important for supplies of margarine, which had been causing concern in Merseyside, Avonmouth and Hull there has been no change in the position, but the Government are taking this up with the unions. [Interruption.] I rather anticipated that particular titter. That is why I gave a detailed list of the improvements that have been made precisely as a result of the Government's taking up matters with the union.

There has been some easing of the difficulties in packaging materials—[Interruption.] I am sure that the right hon. Member for Yeovil (Mr. Peyton) would like an answer to his question. The House might let me get on with it. There has been some easing of the difficulties in packaging materials—for example, in glass bottles and tin cans. But supplies of packaging materials in general are not as good as I should like, and the position needs to be watched on a day-to-day basis.

As the House knows, I have never concealed my concern about the pipeline, but, as regards the supplies in the shops, there has been some improvement in butter, imported bacon, sugar and margarine, and frozen foods. The supply of animal feedingstuffs remains reasonable, though not as satisfactory as I would like.

Finally, Mr. Speaker, I do not wish to depart from my statement of 22 January. I remind the House that it made four important points. First, there were good stocks of food in the country and adequate supplies in the shops, even though the position was not as good in the North-West as it was in the rest of the country. Second, the Government were keeping up their efforts to ensure that there continued to be enough food in the shops. Third, the position appeared to be improving, following the introduction of the code of practice on picketing. Fourth, potentially the position remained serious, and after what had occurred the chain of production and distribution might take some time to return to normal.

Mr. Peyton

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for having given a rather fuller answer than he did earlier in the week. Nevertheless, I feel that the position is growing serious, and I hope that he will forgive me if I ask him several detailed questions.

I hear what he says about the position in the ports, and I acknowledge particularly that there has been improvement at Purfleet. Is he aware, nevertheless, that at Tilbury lorry drivers are being asked to give their names and the numbers of their vehicles 24 hours in advance? It is almost impossible to comply with that requirement.

I am asking these questions, Mr. Speaker, in order to indicate the general atmosphere. Is the Minister aware that at Liverpool yesterday the chairman of the regional emergency committee visited the strike committee and was told—I paraphrase—to go away? Is the Minister aware that at Preston the local strike leader said "We shall decide where pickets go, not Moss Evans or the regional officers in Manchester"? Is he aware that at Humberside terms are being dictated to companies which have nothing to do with the dispute?

May I particularly ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he has received serious warnings about the animal feedstuff position from Preston, from Shrewsbury, from Humberside and from Liverpool, all those warnings carrying the same message—that without an improvement in the position they will not be able to continue to deliver to farmers for very long?

Is the right hon. Gentleman really satisfied that there has been an improvement in packaging materials, particularly glass? My information is that several firms have been brought to a halt for the lack of this material. I hope that the Minister will look into it as a matter of urgency.

As for human foods, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, according to my information, salt is now coming out at only half the rate of last week, that is, 16 per cent. of the normal rate? In regard to oils and fats, is the right hon. Gentleman aware that Bromborough is under a total blockade, that at Erith all the storage tanks are full, and that it is impossible to get out anything at all? Is he further aware that sugar is down to 45 per cent. deliveries, and that cakes and biscuits are down to 50 per cent.?

Although shop shelves may be relatively full, has the right hon. Gentleman really appreciated that the pipeline is emptying quite quickly? One substantial chain of supermarkets informed me this morning that its stocks were down by 40 per cent. in volume and that its shelves were now empty of 40 per cent. of its lines.

Is this not a very comprehensive campaign, and does not the right hon. Gentleman find it very difficult to attribute it to either the capacity or the ill feeling of the Transport and General Workers' Union? Does he not believe that there are some much more wicked people involved?

Mr. Silkin

I wonder whether the House will be a little indulgent with me for about 30 seconds before I deal with those questions, because there is a point which hon. Members may not know about and which it might be of advantage to them to know. If hon. Members have detailed difficulties in their own constituencies, it would be helpful if they would get in touch with the regional emergency committees. This has happened in one or two cases—[HON. MEMBERS: "It is a waste of time."] It is not a waste of time, and indeed in some cases this has happened and the results have been good. If hon. Members want to look after their constituents, the first place to look after them is in their own constituencies.

Having said that, it is obviously right that I should give as detailed a reply as possible to the right hon. Gentleman. What he is telling us about is in fact the consequences of a strike, and I think all of us have been aware that there is a strike. Of course, if there is a strike. supplies get rather short. That is what happens in a strike. The right hon. Gentleman asked me, as he was perfectly entitled to do, where the areas of greatest difficulty are. He mentioned the North-West—Liverpool and Preston. I quite agree with him that that is probably the most difficult area of the lot. That is why I said, in answer to the right hon. Gentleman's question, that this was a matter that I was continually taking up, but it does present difficulties.

I do not believe that the position on Humberside has altered very much since I gave it to the House on Monday. I believe that animal feedingstuffs, although not perhaps flowing as freely as I should like, are now flowing through. The right hon. Gentleman mentioned packaging before human food. Perhaps he was right to do so, because many foods require packaging before reaching the shops. Certainly I said that I thought there was some reason for concern, as I looked at the pipeline, in the case of packaging materials. In terms of local difficulties—though I think that the Coop, for example, has a difficulty as regards bottles—in general the position is better.

Salt was another thing that the right hon. Gentleman mentioned. The position is better this afternoon. It has improved a great deal since Monday, and on Monday it was better than last week. The information that I received an hour or two ago was that the position is better.

Most of BSC's sugar is getting through, and that looks reasonably satisfactory. With Tate and Lyle, there is difficulty in Liverpool, but much less elsewhere.

The right hon. Gentleman mentioned Bromborough. Perhaps I should say that in that case I understand that negotiations are going on at this moment. There may well be some hope that the position will ease.

Mr. Peyton

May I ask the right hon. Gentleman one major question? Is he now satisfied that there is no serious threat, as things are, to the supplies of food for human beings and animals?

Mr. Silkin

I said that I saw no reason to depart from what I said on Monday, which is that the position—and I have to look at it from week to week—over the next weekend—[Interruption.] The right hon. Gentleman wants me to look even further ahead than that, and I am trying to accommodate him. Looking at the position over the next seven days, let us say, there are plentiful supplies—or in some cases not so plentiful supplies but in all cases adequate supplies of foodstuffs in the shops.

I am concerned about the pipeline. That is where the day-to-day watch must come in, and that is exactly what has been happening.

Mr. Corbett

May I commend the calm and reflective approach of my right hon. Friend to these difficult matters? May I ask him, in particular, not to heed the panicky advice from the Conservative Benches, which could only have the effect of making matters a lot worse than they are now?

Mr. Silkin

I thank my hon. Friend. I have come to the conclusion that the necessary pre-education for a Minister of Food during a lorry strike is to have been a Chief Whip.

Sir John Langford-Holt

May I draw the right hon. Gentleman's attention once again to animal feedingstuffs? Is he aware that the Liverpool strike committee is ignoring and not recognising validation certificates issued by other strike committees—I have in mind West Bromwich, for example—as a result of which lorries sent to Liverpool by my constituents are either, if they are lucky, being kept waiting for six hours or, if they are less lucky, being turned round and sent home?

Mr. Silkin

I am aware of that. I did say that I see a difficulty in the North-West which is not typical of other parts of the country. The matter is being dealt with very urgently, and, as I have told the House, the fact that there have been improvements in the supply position for human food and animal feedingstuffs is due to the very careful day-to-day watch that is kept.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Is the Minister aware that the situation in Southampton leaves a lot to be desired, as was vividly described in The Guardian yesterday, where perishable foodstuffs, including onions, are rotting because nobody is allowed to go in and take them?

Is the Minister also aware of the experience of my hon. Friend the Member for Isle of Ely (Mr. Freud), who today was accompanying a lorry driver who, although having the right credentials, was refused entry at Felixstowe? Does he agree that that shows that the whole system is breaking down?

Mr. Silkin

No; it shows that there are difficulties that need to be overcome. Many of those difficulties have been overcome, and the prophecies made of total gloom, starvation and hunger—not by the hon. Gentleman's friends, if he has friends, in the manufacturing industry, but by the Opposition's friends in the foodstuffs industry—have not come to fruition.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

Some might accuse the Opposition of trying to make political capital out of this, so has my right hon. Friend's attention been drawn to the statement made by that non-political person, the president of the National Farmers' Union, Sir Henry Plumb, who happens to be a European Conservative candidate, about the possible loss of animals of both sorts, human and otherwise? How many cases of loss of life among animals, human or otherwise, have been reported to him since the strike started, on the very first day of which it was prophesied that there would be such losses?

Mr. Silkin

First of all, Sir Henry Plumb is no longer the president of the National Farmers' Union, but he did say that the farmers were being throttled. I was present at his farewell dinner, at which 1,000 of them were being throttled in very good circumstances.

I say in all friendliness to Sir Henry Plumb, for whom I have a great affection, that on every day that has passed in the two and a half years since I became Minister of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, there would have been a state of emergency if he had had his way.

Mr. Speaker

Order. I wish to indicate to the House what is in store for us before we get to the Supply day debate—the main debate of the day. There are business questions to follow; there is the statement of the Attorney-General; there are five applications under Standing Order No. 9. This is an extension of Question Time. I shall let it run for another five minutes and then we must move on.

Mrs. Kellett-Bowman

The Minister said that if hon. Members have difficulties in their constituencies they should take them up with the regional committees. He then went on to say that matters were being dealt with urgently in the North-West. Is he aware that the emergency committee there is so bemused and so worried that it has totally lost control and is desperately applying to the farmers' union to help it out of its difficulties and get cargoes released, but that unfortunately the trade union leaders have totally lost control of pickets in the North-West?

There will be no meeting until Monday, and even if there is a meeting on Monday it will take a week to get this sorted out. When the Minister says that matters are being dealt with urgently, and since the local committee has lost control, can he tell us exactly what will happen in the North-West?

Mr. Sikin

The hon. Lady ought to understand that the purpose of a regional emergency committee is not actually to shift feedingstuffs or foodstuffs by itself; it is to work with those people who know what the problems are to try to solve them. In the instance that the hon. Lady cited, I regard it as great credit to the committee that it is working so well with the National Farmers' Union.

Mr. Watkinson

Does my right hon. Friend accept that whilst there are difficulties in the West Country, there have been gross exaggerations about the feedingstuffs problem? Does he accept that farming interests in the West Country have told me that feedingstuffs are coming out of the port of Avonmouth?—[HON. MEMBERS: "You are wrong."] I am not wrong.

Does my right hon. Friend accept that some remarks, even by ex-presidents of the NFU, do not help the present situation?

Mr. Silkin

I have heard from a number of areas and in respect of a number of different commodities something of what my hon. Friend has said. There seems to be—I put it no higher than this—a feeling on the part of some people that, unless they express apocalyptic fears, somehow or other nothing will be done. They are quite wrong. Things are being dealt with properly, as far as the Government can deal with them. The Government are doing everything that they can to help.

Mr. Emery

Does the Minister recall that I raised with him on Monday a specific instance of extortion in secondary picketing, in which money had been demanded of both the driver of a load and the consignee? I gave the exact details to the Home Secretary. As at 2.30 pm today, absolutely nothing—but nothing—had been done. Surely, if we are to try to stop extortion by strikers who are secondary picketing, immediate action must be taken.

Mr. Silkin

I gather from my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary, with whom I have had a moment's consultation while the hon. Member was putting his question, that the matter has been reported to the police.

Mr. Henderson

It is not clear from the Minister's reply whether he was replying also on behalf of the Secretary of State for Scotland in this matter. Does he have any news to give us on the up-to date position in the Scottish ports, particularly in relation to the fishing industry and to the supply of fish boxes, which is causing a very serious problem in getting the fish moved? Is the Minister able to give us any up-to-date information on the supply of containers, canisters and cans for food processers? Companies all over Scotland are already laying off employees in these industries.

Mr. Silkin

I gather that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Scotland made a statement on Tuesday. I think that in the light of the Scottish situation it is probably better if he rather than I dealt with Scottish questions.

Mr. Hardy

May I endorse my right hon. Friend's advice that we should consult our regional offices, where I am sure hon. Members will receive the calm, considerate and courteous response which I obtained earlier this week? Perhaps I may also thank those offices and my right hon. Friend for ensuring that feedingstuff supplies to the farms in South Yorkshire have been maintained at a satisfactory level right through the strike, and despite the most appalling horror stories that have been circulating about imminent cannibalism from the very first day.

May I also suggest that it would be as well if my right hon. Friend gave a little attention to the supplies of certain foodstuffs to South Yorkshire? Supply patterns throughout the country are not particularly even, and housewives of Rother Valley are a little short of sugar and lard.

Mr. Silkin

As I say, there are bound to be variations between one area and another. I shall certainly see that the problem raised by my hon. Friend is communicated as quickly as possible.

Mr. Sainsbury

Does the Minister realise that when he says that the supply of margarine had been causing concern, and when his right hon. Friend the Home Secretary says, as he did yesterday, that the position on food generally is unquestionably getting better, it gives the impression to the housewife that when she goes shopping there is nothing to worry about and that there will not be anything to worry about next week? Does the Minister recognise that throughout the country there are many shops that are completely out of stock of sugar, salt, margarine and lard? Does the Minister recognise that in nearly all food shops there are now only limited supplies of canned and packaged food? Does he appreciate that these food items are of particular importance to small households and the elderly?

The reason for this situation, as the Minister surely recognises, is that secondary picketing is being resumed in some cases, and food manufacturers and distributors are unable to get on with their jobs. Will the Minister clearly tell the House now—[HON. MEMBERS: "Too long."]—how food distributors—[Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker

Order The hon. Member is finishing his sentence.

Mr. Sainsbury

Will the Minister make a clear statement to the House as to how well he expects food distributors to be able to replenish the supplies now in their shops, so that there is an adequate supply of food for housewives next week?

Mr. Silkin

In the shops, the position varies from place to place and from shop to shop. The fact remains, however, that there are adequate supplies of food in the shops. It may be necessary to shop around a bit. As I say, the position varies from area to area.

There are still adequate supplies of fresh meat, bacon, butter, fruit, vegetables, sugar and margarine in the shops. The position on supplies of lard is a bit more difficult.

I must tell the hon. Member that I have the authority of quite a distinguished chain of food shops to back me up on this matter.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. On this question I shall call one more hon. Member from each side of the House.

Mr. Ioan Evans

Will my right hon. Friend take this opportunity to pay a tribute to the housewives and consumers of Britain who responded to his appeal not to panic buy, despite the encouragement from Opposition spokesmen, which was widely reported in the mass media?

At the same time, will my right hon. Friend explain the Opposition's attitude when Opposition Members say that there should be no Government interference with wage bargaining but then call upon the Government to interfere in this, that and the other?

Mr. Silkin

On the second point, I tried to say that when there is a strike, of course there will be shortages. The Government's intervention must be to see, as far as a Government can, that those shortages are fairly shared and that supplies are preserved as much as possible.

On the first point, it occurs to me that the housewives of this country are showing a great deal more sense than are some Conservative Members.

Mr. Eldon Griffiths

Since many of the targets of the secondary picketing in the eastern counties have been the jugular veins of the food industry—salt, yeast, blood from the abattoirs, and packaging materials—does the Minister agree that there are some signs that part of this picketing has been pre-planned, several months ahead? What is his comment on the suggestion of a senior trade union leader that some of it is politically co-ordinated and that some of it is financed from the outside?

Mr. Silkin

It would be interesting to see from what political party such suggestions came, because at moments such as this one hears all sorts of rumours. I heard that quite a few were from members of the Conservative Party. I shall not go into political motivation at this time, any more than I went into the political motivation of those manufacturers who told us that we would be starving over a week ago.