INDUSTRIAL DISPUTES (Hansard, 19 January 1979)

§ The Secretary of State for Transport (Mr. William Rodgers)
With permission, Mr. Speaker, I shall make a further statement about matters arising from current industrial disputes, particularly in the road haulage industry.
Reports that we have received this morning generally confirm the pattern of priority supplies moving—sometimes on a restricted basis—in most parts of the country, with awkward bottlenecks arising from time to time. The situation generally remains more difficult in the North-West and Humberside although there have been some improvements.
The main problem in the ports is the acute congestion of general cargo and container traffic. There are a limited number of import and export cargoes being moved by roll-on/roll-off services, notably at Dover, Felixstowe and Newhaven. There is limited movement out of the ports of food, animal feed and certain other items. At Bristol—Avonmouth—for example, the movement of animal feed and grain is reported to be about three-quarters of normal and improving, but at London—Tilbury—and at Forth —Leith—the movement of grain and animal feed out of the docks remains very small. At Hull there is no movement of grain or animal feed out of the docks.
As to food, commodities are in short supply but, in general, stocks in shops and supermarkets should be adequate to meet the needs of weekend shoppers.
2113 We have received no reports so far today of acute shortages of animal feed-ingstuffs. There have been serious bottlenecks, particularly in areas supplied from Hull, but these appear to have eased.
At the moment I am not aware of any immediate problem with medical supplies. However, in all these cases where priority supplies are involved, I hope that anyone affected by delays will immediately inform our regional emergency committees. Right hon. and hon. Gentlemen may, alternatively, wish to pass messages through my private office.
It is too soon to assess the impact of the code of practice issued yesterday by the Transport and General Workers Union, which has also been sent to the United Road Transport Union, the other union involved in the dispute. It has now been widely publicised, and full-time officials of the union are seeking to ensure that it is acted upon. It should be possible to make some estimate of its impact by the end of today but, given the intervention of the weekend, the outcome may not be wholly clear until early next week.
The list of priority supplies and the line drawn around the extent of the dispute should help to minimise shortages. It is also clear that fewer men have so far been laid off in industry than was at one time feared. Nevertheless, if the dispute continues there can be no question of the severe effects that it will have on the livelihood of many workers who are not party to it, on industry and on the economic life of the country.
There are reports that a number of strikers are anxious to return to work on the basis of the offer made by the Road Haulage Association and that some have continued to work normally. I have no means of judging whether this is so, but I hope that everyone on strike will see the overwhelming merits of a speedy return to work. I shall, of course, be happy to seek to answer questions about the rail dispute as well.

§ Mr. Norman Fowler
Is it not clear from the Secretary of State's statement that a real and urgent crisis still affects virtually all the transport industries? The rail strike has deepened and become an inter-union dispute, and many of our principal ports are now virtually closed. 2114 Above all, there is a continuing stranglehold on the movement of goods by road.
I would like to put three points to the Secretary of State on the road haulage dispute. I refer the right hon. Gentleman to the Prime Minister's statement yesterday suggesting that the voluntary code of conduct would rule out secondary picketing. The House has now had an opportunity of studying that code. Is it not clear that the code leaves local strike committees with total discretion on where picketing takes place, and contains no prohibition on picketing outside the premises of firms not connected with the dispute? Do the Government intend that there should be no such prohibition? That was not the impression that the Prime Minister gave to the House yesterday.
On the dispute itself, will the Secretary of State go one stage further and agree that the offer made by the Road Haulage Association is fair and the most that the industry can afford? We have also received reports that many lorry drivers resent the way in which they have been called out on strike. In addition, millions of ordinary men and women in this country deplore the hardship and the mass unemployment that this strike is now causing. I would like the Secretary of State to know that we add our voice in urging that the strike should be called off immediately.

§ Mr. Rodgers
I shall take the hon. Gentleman's points in reverse order. We can all form our judgments about feelings over the strike but I will limit myself to saying that I hope that it will end very soon. I believe that no purpose whatever is served by men remaining out of work.
I do not think that the hon. Gentleman will expect me to say that a proposed settlement of 15 per cent. is fair. It is extravagant in terms of the Government's guidelines, and from that point of view it cannot possibly have my endorsement. But this remains a dispute between the Road Haulage Association and the Transport and General Workers' Union and URTU. It is for them to resolve it as best they may.
I hope that the hon. Gentleman has studied fully the paper sent to officials of the Transport and General Workers' Union by Transport House. The paper made clear that the official direction of 2115 the union is very firm in its intentions. The opening paragraph refers to "directions" and the closing paragraph to "instructions". It is too soon to say—I want to make it absolutely plain—how effective this will be. I am ready to acknowledge that, so far, the officials of the union, despite very strenuous efforts— I want to pay tribute to what has been done, particularly by regional secretaries— have not brought picketing under control.
The issue of secondary picketing is much more complex than most of us in the House ever believed. My right hon. Friend the Home Secretary made this clear in his statement yesterday. If the directions of the Transport and General Workers' Union are carried out—drawing a clear ring fence round the dispute between it and the Road Haulage Association, and clearly indicating that it is part of the hire and reward section that is involved, and not the own-account section or the National Freight Corporation —this is the best formula for introducing a degree of order into a situation that has been very unsatisfactory.

§ Mr. Norman Fowler
I accept the last part of the Secretary of State's remarks, but is it not still clear that the code of practice to which he has referred does not lay down where picketing should take place and does not contain any prohibition on picketing outside the premises of firms unconnected with this dispute? Do the Government intend that to be the case or not? That is a fair and realistic question.

§ Mr. Rodgers
With respect, it is a much more complex question. I do not blame the hon. Gentleman, or other hon. Members, because a lot of this is unfamiliar ground to all of us. It is certainly the case that no picketing should take place outside firms that are in no way involved in the dispute. That is plain. But the hon. Gentleman will realise that there are circumstances in which, for example, subcontractors who are not party to the dispute seek to carry some of the goods that otherwise would be carried in vehicles that are involved in the dispute. It has always been understood that special circumstances prevail in cases of that kind.

§ Mr. James Johnson
The Secretary of State referred to Hull at least twice in 2116 his statement Can he confirm that, due to the efforts of the TGWU local full-time officials and the Minister of Agriculture's broadcast on Humberside radio at 6 am last Thursday morning, things are better than when I was there last week and that although there was a shortage of animal feed going out to the beasts in the fields in the wolds, that situation has changed since the Minister spoke on local radio?

§ Mr. Rodgers
There has been a recent improvement at Hull. It has been one of the black spots. One has to say that frankly. The importance of Hull is shown by the extent to which other parts of the country north of Hull have depended upon it as a source of feedingstuffs, but the situation has improved. The regional official of the Transport and General Workers' Union there has been playing his full part.

§ Mr. Cyril Smith
I draw the Secretary of State's attention to that part of his statement which says that there is no movement of grain or animal feed out of the docks at Hull.
The port of Hull feeds a large section of Yorkshire and Lincolnshire. Is it not now time for a national official of the union as opposed to a regional official to be urged to go to Hull to try to ease the situation, which is clearly one of the worst in the country? My second question is on a different issue. Has the Minister any news on the way in which the negotiations are proceeding in the water industry dispute?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I shall take the second point first.
The negotiations are still going on. Happily, there has been no deterioration in the situation, but that will not be much comfort to those affected. The discussions are continuing and we must still hope for a satisfactory outcome at an early stage.
On the question of Hull, I would not differ from what the hon. Gentleman says. If the present problems cannot be unlocked at regional level, I would expect the national officials of the union to deal with the situation themselves. Their intention to help, in terms of the code of practice, is apparent. It is too early, this morning, to expect many results. The code of practice did not even reach 2117 regional offices until late yesterday afternoon. It has been widely publicised in this morning's newspapers and there is no reason why we should not see some outcome by the end of today. I would not wish to form a final assessment until early next week.

§ Mr. Arthur Lewis
Some of my constituents who are road haulage and railway strikers have asked me to put a question to the Secretary of State. Is he aware that hundreds—indeed, thousands —of workers are drawing hundreds of pounds a week in salaries and fees and also getting £16.50 a day tax-free as an expense allowance, which is worth a further £10 a day on a tax basis? I see the Home Secretary frowning. I am referring to another place, the House of Lords. If this were paid to the strikers, whether they were road haulage or railway workers, there would be no strike. They would attend religiously. If they were paid this £16.50 a day they would be there every day. They say that they cannot understand why 800 or 1,000 peers of the realm should get this amount if they cannot.

§ Mr. Rodgers
I think we all accept that there are many differentials in our society, many of which we do not like. I am certainly not content with the distribution of wealth and income, but that is one matter which should be resolved properly through the process of Parliament and through a large measure of co-operation as a matter of course between the Government and the trade union movement. But that in itself does not justify industrial action of the kind that is very damaging to the country and that I do not believe, in the end, will help those whom it is intended to help. On the contrary, if it leads once again to inflation on the level that we experienced some years ago, all of us will be the sufferers.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. May I appeal to the House for succinct questions? This is Private Members' day and I want to call as many as possible.

§ Mr. Whitehead
May I applaud what my right hon. Friend said in paying tribute to the regional and local officials of the TGWU who are carrying out their 2118 task with great patience and still with good humour in a difficult situation, when they are torn between their duty to the union and their duty to the community? However, could something be done about the position in which chits issued by local offices of the union are not being honoured by strike committees, where matters of health and safety are concerned in the cargoes involved? Is it not possible to have one unified chit in this case?

§ Mr. Rodgers
Many people have been bothered by what seem to be somewhat bureaucratic and distasteful procedures involving chits and dispensations. It is clear that in some parts of the country the process has been so laborious that although the decision at the end of the day is right, it may have taken a long time to reach. We have drawn the attention of the TGWU to this sort of thing. I am grateful to my hon. Friend for mentioning it. We must see how we go, and I hope that there will be an improvement.

§ Mr. Wyn Roberts
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that neither he nor the Home Secretary has made any significant reference to Wales in all the statements that we have had? Can he assure us. for example, that he has examined the situation in Holyhead, where secondary picketing has prevented lorries from the Aluminium Corporation, which has works in my constituency, from moving exports to Ireland? I have given the Lord President verbal warning of this. In Ebbw Vale small hauliers are having their dispensations withdrawn to supply coal and essential supplies to elderly, sick and pensioned people.

§ Mr. Rodgers
I should make it clear that the unit under the chairmanship of my right hon. Friend the Home Secretary is seeking to co-ordinate problems that arise throughout the United Kingdom, including therefore, obviously, Wales. I am maintaining close contact, within my own responsibility, with the Secretaries of State for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. We are seeking to co-ordinate and deal in an orderly fashion on the same basis of parity—if I may put it that way—with all matters that arise. I have noted what the hon. Member said about Holyhead. If that problem persists, perhaps he will let me know and we will do what we can, through the new machinery, to get it unlocked.

§ Mr. Temple-Morris
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that a serious aspect of the problem in rural areas is the fact that, for example, feedingstuffs are not getting off the docks because drivers are not unionised, and that this is affecting many farmers' co-operatives? Is he further aware that paragraph 4, I think, of the code of practice makes no reference to any drivers other than members of the TGWU? Does he appreciate the seriousness of this, and will he make representations to the union to that effect?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I am certainly aware that, for example, feedingstuffs have not in many cases been getting off the docks. That is why I made a particular feature of explaining the situation in my statement. As I said, it is slightly better today, though I would not pretend for a moment that it is satisfactory, but I take note of what the hon. Gentleman has said. These are precisely the points that we shall discuss with officials of the union and on which I hope that we shall see an improvement.

§ Mr. John Ellis
Does my right hon. Friend agree that some questions that we have heard show little knowledge of what, as he says, is a difficult and intricate industry? Does he also agree that at the end of the day it will be discussion of the difficulties and the poor rates of pay and terrible hours of overtime in this industry that will result in a settlement, rather than people making inflamed comments, seeking to stir things up and raising a howl at any suggestion that people employed in the industry have any powers or rights at all, implying that the real power lies only with the employers who hire and fire? Does not that sort of attitude reinforce the class conflict? Is it not the warriors on the other side of the House who are really inflaming this situation?

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. May I appeal for questions to be not arguments but questions to the Minister?

§ Mr. Rodgers
Yes, it is an intricate industry and I am learning more about it all the time. We should recognise what I think is a natural public anxiety. That is why Ministers have a duty to report to the House and to provide as much information as we can. No one can complain about a housewife who is wondering what will be on the shelves this week 2120 end, or a farmer who is worried about foodstuffs or someone who is concerned about whether drugs will get through. That is entirely natural, but I hope that, despite that, we shall try in the House to have a reasonable discussion. Our obligation and the Government's obligation is to make the best of a very difficult situation. Certainly I agree with my hon. Friend that there is no merit in stirring things up. We should be much more responsible than that.

§ Mr. Forman
But does the right hon. Gentleman accept that, although the Government may have decided to subcontract a large portion of their authority to the Transport and General Workers' Union—

§ Mr. John Ellis
You silly man.

§ Mr. Forman
—they cannot be allowed to sub-contract their responsibility? Will he therefore now set a deadline under which he or one of his right hon. Friends will come to the House early next week to take legal measures if the code of practice has not worked in the meantime?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I have normally found the hon. Gentleman one of the more sensible of hon. Gentlemen opposite—[HON. MEMBERS: "Oh, come on."] Perhaps I was wrong. I am sorry to have offended other hon. Members who believe that claims should be made on their behalf. But I do not think that the hon. Gentleman's remarks help. We have not subcontracted any responsibilities. We are trying to deal realistically with what I have said plainly is a difficult situation. It would be very foolish of me or any of my colleagues to say now precisely when and whether a state of emergency will have to be introduced, but, as the Prime Minister has made clear, we have not ruled this out: we have to see how these new arrangements go.

§ Mr. Grylls
Can the right hon. Gentleman give us more detail about the situation of exports, which is desperate for industry? I do not know what advice the Secretary of State for Industry has given him about this. Can he guarantee to industry and the House that the measures which he has taken in conjunction with the TGWU will free the exports in the docks so that they can get moving again?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I am not this morning giving the House any guaranteee about anything. All I am saying is how things now look and what the best prospects may be, bearing in mind that, of course, the situation could deteriorate. I do not exaggerate at all the possibility that later in the week there may be shortages of a kind that are not now current. But I recognise the problem of exports. When I referred to our own industrial and economic future, exports were very much in my mind. Provided that those exports are carried in the way that I described in vehicles that are not party to the dispute in any way, certainly there is no reason why they should not begin to move again. They are not moving much at the present time; that is absolutely plain.

§ Mr. Grylls
Why not?

§ Mr. Rodgers
The hon. Gentleman asks why not. He knows the reason. This is a problem that we are seeking to overcome. I hope that we may be able to resolve this problem by early next week.

§ Mr. Cryer
Is my right hon. Friend able or willing to bring pressure to bear on the Road Haulage Association to get the dispute settled as soon as possible, bearing in mind that the RHA members are almost certainly Tories and no doubt see some political advantage in prolonging the strike? Will he take note that not one Tory Member has expressed any sympathy or concern for the picket who was killed at Aberdeen? Can he imagine the bleeding hearts they would have shown if a strike-breaker had been killed by pickets? Will my right hon. Friend confirm that violence has occurred only against pickets, and that the pickets are conducting themselves with probity?

§ Mr. Rodgers
Nobody in the House could have anything but sympathy for the next of kin of a person who dies in these tragic and unnecessary circumstances. I am glad that my hon. Friend drew attention to the matter.
For the most part my hon. Friend is right. Generally speaking there has been no violence on the picket lines, and that is welcome. It is not for me to bring pressure to bear on the RHA. I have said plainly that a settlement, even at 15 per cent., is way above the level that the country can afford. A series of settle- 2122 ments of that size and above would be extremely damaging to our future economic prospects.

§ Mr. Heffer
Does my right hon. Friend accept that it is deplorable that the House should discuss whether there should be secondary picketing or a state of emergency but say so little about what is being done to reach a settlement? I urge my right hon. Friend not to become involved in the argument whether the Road Haulage Association should pay 15 per cent. Will he and his right hon. Friends stop talking about the possibility of a state of emergency and get some negotiations going, so that there can be a settlement? Let us hear that from the Front Bench instead of what we constantly hear.

§ Mr. Rodgers
Some people would say that the problem is the consequence of free collective bargaining. Many of us who have been in favour of an incomes policy greatly regret that outcome. My hon. Friend is right to raise this matter. Both parties to the dispute have been in touch, informally, with ACAS. If the matter is to be resolved satisfactorily and soon, ACAS has the leading part to play.

§ Mr. Sims
Is the Secretary of State aware that in addition to the thousands who have been laid off because of the road haulage dispute, many commuters are now back to a three-day working week, thanks to the rail strike? Since this is virtually an inter-union dispute, and since the Secretary of State and his right hon. Friends claim to have a special relationship with the unions, will the Secretary of State devote his weekend to ensuring that next week people who wish to go to work can do so?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I should, be happy to devote my weekend to a constant round of meetings with the unions and the British Railways Board if I honestly believed in my heart that that was the best way of resolving the dispute. It is an unhappy story. I have said that before, and it remains so. I hope that the helpful informal intervention by Mr. Len Murray, of the TUC, and the willingness of Mr. Jim Mortimer, of ACAS, to play his part will result in some movement. I am certainly prepared to call the parties together at any time, as I did twice this week, if I believe that that will make a difference.

§ Mr. Madden
Will the Secretary of State take the opportunity to remind everybody that lorry drivers, who receive a low basic rate of pay, are engaged in their first national strike for 46 years? Will he also take the opportunity to consider, with the Secretary of State for Employment, meeting the employers and unions this weekend to try to secure a settlement on the basis of the union's claim?
Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the lessening pressure for a declaration of a state of emergency indicates that the more sane sections of the Conservative Party recognise that such a declaration would inflame passions and add to the difficulties rather than solve them?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I do not want to speculate about what is in the minds of the Opposition, but I hope that they have had time to reflect seriously on the importance of making a right decision, which will be effective, rather than, in the words of the Home Secretary, a cosmetic decision.
It is true that there has not been an industrial action of this kind in the road haulage industry for many years. But I am afraid that that does not justify what is happening now. I am sure that my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Employment is, on this occasion as on others, prepared to play his part. My view remains that for the moment ACAS is the most likely road to a solution.

§ Mr. Costain
Is the Secretary of State aware of the special problem involved, due to picketing, in the supply of calor gas? Is he aware that calor gas is the only means of heating houses and temporary structures in rural areas? Will he take special action so that we do not have to express regret at the many people who may die of hypothermia?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I agree with the hon. Member. Paragraph 3 of the directions issued by the Transport and General Workers' Union, on the basis of the Government's list of priorities, specifically refers to bottled gas, for the reasons given by the hon. Member.

§ Mr. Litterick
Has the Secretary of State heard the story of the Conservative MP who went on the radio in Southampton to announce to a no doubt startled population that there was no cattle feed to be had for miles around and that all 2124 supplies had been cut off by the damnable strikers? A short time later it transpired—

§ Mr. Speaker
I wish to call many hon. Members. I hope that the hon. Member will ask his question.

§ Mr. Litterick
I began by saying "Has the Secretary of State heard the story". May I now relate the story to the Secretary of State?

§ Mr. Speaker
It depends how long the story is.

§ Mr. Skinner
It is very short, and has a good ending.

§ Mr. Litterick
It is a wee story. Immediately it transpired that there was no shortage because no constraint on the supply of cattle feed from the port of Southampton was being exerted by the strikers. The hon. Member had to withdraw his statement on the radio because the union members said that if he did not withdraw his filthy imputation they would stop supplies. Does not that illustrate the blind hatred of the Opposition for trade unions and trade unionists? The Conservatives are not interested in the facts; they are interested in divisive fantasy.

§ Mr. Rodgers
I have heard the story. It was better told the first time I heard it.

§ Mr. Paul Dean
Does the Secretary of State admit that the main cause of the trouble is verbal intimidation on the picket lines and that that is supposed to be against the law? How much longer must we wait before the Government uphold the law?

§ Mr. Rodgers
When the hon. Member uses the word "intimidation" he moves into a serious area. Whatever arguments there may be about what the law should say—[Interruption.]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I can hear a running commentary between hon. Members.

§ Mr. Cryer
I did not start it.

§ Mr. Speaker
Whoever started it, I want to finish it.

§ Mr. Rodgers
There are arguments that I am sure will continue about the law on picketing, but the use of the word "intimidation" is serious. If the hon. 2125 Member for Somerset, North (Mr. Dean) has clear examples of intimidation he should inform the chief constable in the area. He has the power to act.

§ Mr. Skinner
Will the Prime Minister —[HON. MEMBERS: "He is not the Prime Minister."] He might be, he is trying hard enough and he is one of the hawks in the Cabinet. Will the Secretary of State accept that if there is free collective bargaining the Government's job is to be at least even-handed in this dispute? Should not a code of practice have been drawn up by not only the Transport and General Workers' Union but by the Road Haulage Association so that the lorry drivers who are employed on hire and reward to break through the picket lines and create difficulties are not covered?
Assuming that the newspapers—such as The Sun, which is printed in Conservative Central Office—have now got their figures right about millions being out of work this weekend and thousands of people starving, will the Minister give an estimate on those two possibilities?

§ Mr. Rodgers
My hon. Friend is right in his final remark. There was a great deal of exaggeration a week ago about the immediate consequences of the strike. I do not minimise the long-term impact, but not nearly as many people have been laid off as was expected.
It is plain that the Government have a responsibility to the community. Where the community is being damaged by the present industrial dispute we shall take action to ease the situation. We shall continue to be even-handed to solve the problems.

§ Mr. Cormack
The Minister said that there was considerable doubt about how widely the strike was truly supported. Will he ask Mr. Moss Evans whether he will hold a secret ballot among the strikers?

§ Mr. Rodgers
There is no point in that. We want to get the code of practice effective and see the dispute come to an end. The hon. Gentleman is naive if he believes that complex problems like this can be solved by the ballot box. The ballot box has a place in our national life, but not in these circumstances.

§ Mr. Ward
Does my right hon. Friend have details of the amicable agreement 2126 reached this morning in Liverpool for the release of large stocks of food from Liverpool docks? Does he agree that this comes from patient, reasonable discussion and not from the coercion advocated by Conservative Members?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I am grateful for that good news, which had not hitherto reached me. I entirely agree that patient negotiation is far more likely to produce this result.

§ Mr. Brotherton
Will the Minister comment on the supply of packaging to food processing factories? If the packaging does not get through, those factories will surely close, with the attendant food shortages, just as if the food itself was not getting through to them.

§ Mr. Rodgers
In our earlier discussions it was not plain that packaging was important in ensuring the movement of foodstuffs. But packaging is now included in the code of practice. This covers such things as bottle and bottle tops that are essential to maintaining priority supplies.

§ Mr. Moate
While one understands the reluctance of the Secretary of State to endorse the 15 per cent. pay offer, will he accept that it is not adequate for him to be a neutral observer of the dispute? Is he recommending that the strikers return to work on the basis of the offer made by the employers? Does he accept that the employers' arbitration offer and the terms attached to it are reasonable?
Will he also accept that the RHA employs about 180,000 people and that the union has claimed only some 40,000 out on strike? Does not that strongly support the case for the use of the ballot box, which might have prevented a strike altogether?

§ Mr. Rodgers
On the second point, I see no evidence that in these circumstances the ballot box would ease the problems. The Government are not party to the dispute. I have made our position plain. We do not believe that an offer of 15 per cent. is consistent with keeping inflation down in the way to which we are all committed. But I think that everybody should get back to work now.

§ Mr. Cohen
Following the report on Liverpool, is my right hon. Friend aware that those strikers, much maligned by hon. Gentlemen opposite, have trans- 2127 ported goods without any receipt of income for themselves and have donated to charity the amount they would have been paid for such work?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I believe that to be absolutely correct.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. I shall call only those five hon. Members who are standing.

§ Mr. Hordern
If the Minister thinks that the 15 per cent. offered by the Road Haulage Association is too high, is there not some doubt about whether the Government are really concerned with a speedy settlement of this dispute? So that a settlement can be reached, will he make clear whether the new powers that the Price Commission is aiming to get will be applied to the members of the Road Haulage Association using the pro-fits gained to increase wages?

§ Mr. Rodgers
If 15 per cent. is the out-come of free collective bargaining we shall once more be in a difficult inflationary position. That would be so if this was the going rate throughout the private sector. It would also undermine the position of those who have already settled much below 15 per cent., often on the basis of the Government's guidelines. I am aware of the argument about the Price Commission. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Prices and Consumer Protection is conscious of his responsibilities.

§ Mr. McNamara
Is my right hon. Friend aware that if we try to negotiate this dispute on the Floor of the House we shall not be successful? It must be left to the parties to the dispute and to the good offices of ACAS. Although the Government must make their opinion known, having stated that opinion it would be difficult if they appeared to be backing one or other of the parties to the dispute.
Is he also aware that the ballot can be a two-edged weapon? When the Scottish lorry men had their ballot, they voted four to one to reject the proposal. If we insist on ballots, we can go on extending a dispute while offer and counter-offer are made. That will not get the country working again and get our constituents back to work.

§ Mr. Rodgers
I wholly endorse those wise words.

§ Mr. Edward Gardner
The Minister has said that he cannot approve the offer that the Road Haulage Association has made to the strikers in an effort to settle this dispute, because it seems to him excessive. Does he mean that the employers are offering too much? Is he suggesting that the employers should attempt to settle this strike by offering less?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I have no statutory powers to disapprove. The Government found it necessary, rightly, to lay down guidelines for free collective bargaining. But I cannot possibly say that a settlement of 15 per cent. will not have dangerous effects.

§ Mr. Crouch
Will the Secretary of State intensify the Government's efforts to find a speedy and satisfactory solution to this dispute? I agree with the hon. Member for Liverpool, Walton (Mr. Heffer) that it is the Government's job to find out the feeling amongst the men on strike. Is the Minister aware that in East Kent the drivers did not want to go on strike, were prepared to accept the RHA offer and now want to go back to work? Will he go out beyond Moss Evans and talk to the regional and district officers in order to achieve a settlement of the dispute as speedily as possible?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I do not think the hon. Gentleman knows how the structure of the union would allow that sort of negotiating. It is not for the Government to negotiate in this matter. The Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service can be used and the procedures are very well known. Anyone may make a judgment about the feeling of the men on strike. I am sure that those feelings will come through and will lead to the eventual outcome of the dispute.

§ Mr. Nicholas Winterton
The Secretary of State rightly mentioned the desperate crisis in the North-West. Is he aware that when my constituents contact the regional emergency committee the people there indicate that they are impotent and cannot do anything and that my constituents must contact the Transport and General Workers' Union—as if that body were an official arm of Government? Is the right hon. Gentleman also aware that the mass slaughter of farm animals in 2129 my area is imminent because of the shortage of animal feedingstuffs and that from Monday no meals are likely to be served in Cheshire schools because the county cannot purchase food in bulk?

§ Mr. Rodgers
If the hon. Gentleman will make precise evidence available to my office without delay, I shall look into those very serious charges. I am certainly concerned about what he said concerning inquiries being referred to the TGWU. That is not the appropriate procedure, and if the hon. Gentleman will telephone my office shortly with detailed information we shall have it investigated.

§ Mr. Peter Bottomley
Most of the questions put to the Minister have been concerned with the effects of the present disputes. May I turn his attention to the effects of a possible settlement? Every hon. Member will be receiving deputations of public service employees next week, the teachers' pay claim comes up shortly after that, and every other section of workers, many of whom are already claiming, in a way justifiably, about 30 per cent. increases will raise their claims, justifiably in their view as a sectional interest, by another 10 per cent., taking us up to 40 per cent. pay claims.
Can the Secretary of State get his colleagues to recognise that, in the national interest, all our expectations must be deflated or we shall be in a continuing upward spiral? Can the right hon. Gentleman also try to persuade some of his colleagues who have been conspicuously silent to speak out as he has? I 2130 am thinking particularly of the Secretary of State for Energy and the Minister for Social Security. Can the right hon. Gentleman get them to say a word on the level of pay settlements, including the lorry drivers' claim?

§ Mr. Rodgers
I do not intend to instruct my colleagues and there is no need for me to do so. We all see these matters in precisely the same way. The hon. Gentleman's earlier remarks were very sensible and I regret that we did not hear them from Conservative Members more often at an earlier stage in the pay round. I hope that all those who believed in the autumn that free collective bargaining, often called responsible free collective bargaining, would prevent inflation rising again will think twice about whether that is so. We have to get down to a great debate in the country to find the means and machinery for having a policy that is really effective in pay, prices and productivity.