PRIME MINISTER (ENGAGEMENTS) (Hansard, 18 January 1979)

§ Q1. Mr. Terry Walker
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for 18th January.

§ The Prime Minister(Mr. James Callaghan)
This morning I presided at a meeting of the Cabinet. In addition to my duties in this House I shall be holding further meetings with ministerial colleagues and others.

§ Mr. Walker
Is my right hon. Friend aware that neither in her television broadcast last evening nor in her speech to the House of Commons on Tuesday did the Leader of the Opposition make any reference to how the Tories would tackle the problems of inflation? [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] Short-term, ill-considered proposals on trade union legislation would not help the country in the present situation. [HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."] Will my right hon. Friend continue to impress upon the trade union movement that inflationary wage increases have no relevance to social justice and are not in the best interests of working people—[HON. MEMBERS: "Reading."]

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. The hon. Member made copious use of notes, that is all.

§ The Prime Minister
That might be so, but I did not hear all the question. If I caught my hon. Friend's first few words correctly, as I think I did, he stressed the need in all our current problems to emphasise the importance of overcoming inflation. That, of course, is right. Inflationary wage settlements, so far as they enter into the final costs of production, give rise to rising prices and rising unemployment. Nothing that I know can destory that basic fact. It should be hammered home on all occasions.

§ Sir Paul Bryan
Does the Prime Minister appreciate that in the East Riding of Yorkshire we have the biggest concentration of pigs in the country? [HON. MEMBERS: "That is right."] Labour Members will laugh less when I tell them that, owing to the concentration of the Transport and General Workers' Union on the feed mills of Hull, a large number of those animals are definitely and genuinely in danger of going short of food. Hon. Members may laugh if they wish.
Will the Prime Minister today phone up the strike committee in Hull and use his influence to persuade its members to withdraw the pickets and to show in practice the sympathy which they profess for animal welfare?

§ The Prime Minister
The hon. Member will now understand how I sometimes feel when I have to give a quick reply at the Dispatch Box and I say not quite what I mean to say. The hon. Gentleman made a serious point, however I understand that there have been particular problems, 1946 especially in the port of Hull and in East Yorkshire, with picketing and secondary picketing. I know that contacts have been made through the emergency unit. I believe that some changes have been made. Clearly I cannot give a definite answer to the hon. Member. I shall have something more to say about the general position in my statement later.

§ Mr. Mike Thomas
Will my right hon. Friend, in the course of his engagements today, seek to ascertain from the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition whether she sees any relationship between wage settlements and inflation and, if so, why she fails signally to refer to that relationship in any of her public statements?

§ The Prime Minister
I am sure that the right hon. Lady is as aware as anyone else of the consequences of inflation. This is a problem to which more attention might be paid by the Opposition on occasions, instead of referring to what are in certain circumstances peripheral matters affecting powers. I do not believe that taking statutory powers is necessarily, as experience has shown, the right way to conquer inflation.

§ Q2. Mr. Blaker
asked the Prime Minister if he will list his official engagements for Thursday 18th January.

§ The Prime Minister
I refer the hon. Member to the reply which I have just given to my hon. Friend the Member for Kingswood (Mr. Walker).

§ Mr. Blaker
I understand that it is the intention of the Prime Minister to seek a voluntaryagreement with the trade unions, not simply with a view to settling the present dispute but on wider and longer-term issues. How will such an agreement differ from the solemn and binding agreement made between the trade unions and the Labour Government in the 1960s which, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer reminded us not long ago, melted away like butter in the sun?

§ The Prime Minister
That is not on the list of my engagements for today, I am bound to say, and we had better wait to see what emerges from discussions with the TUC, which I shall certainly hope to have as soon as possible. I imagine that present circumstances have shown clearly how important it is for any Government 1947 to secure the full co-operation of the organised workers in this country if we are to succeed.

§ Mr. Stoddart
As my right hon. Friend reflects today—if he reflects at all—on the right hon. Lady's broadcast last night, will he recognise that it was an exercise in sheer damned hypocrisy, for two reasons? First, on the one hand, she is citicising the lorry drivers for following the policies advocated by herself and her right hon. Friend the Member for Leeds, North-East (Sir K. Joseph)—

§ Mr. Burden
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. In the light of circumstances today—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Usually we take points of order at the end of Question Time.

§ Mr. Stoddart
Secondly, will not my right hon. Friend agree that the right hon. Lady was hypocritical in promising—

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. It is out of order, as the House knows, and quite wrong, for an hon. Member to call any other hon. Member a hypocrite.

§ Mr. Stoddart
Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker, but I did not call the right hon. Lady a hypocrite. I merely said that the political broadcast was an exercise in hypocrisy, and I think it was. [HON. MEMBERS: "Withdraw."] Will my right hon. Friend say whether he does not think that promising public service workers substantial increases in pay, and at the same time threatening huge cuts in public expenditure, is a hypocritical exercise?

§ The Prime Minister
I am afraid that I am unable to join in this, as I did not have the privilege of seeing the television broadcast. I am not, therefore, able to pass any comments on it. What is quite clear is that if we have free collective bargaining, as a result of which public sector workers are to have large increases in pay, it is certainly not consistent with that to promise large cuts in taxation. I am sure that must be known to the Conservative Front Bench.

§ Mr. Baker
If Mr. Moss Evans can produce within a matter of hours a draft 1948 code on picketing, why is it not possible for the Government within a matter of days to produce their own proposals on picketing and to publish them this weekend, so that we can debate them in the House next week?

§ The Prime Minister
The Transport and General Workers' Union, as I shall report a little later, is issuing a code of practice about the current dispute and the current dispute alone. That is somewhat easier than drawing up a general code that would apply to all disputes at all times. I should have thought that the Opposition, having seen some of the results of their own ill-considered legislation, would not wish to rush back into this too soon.

§ Mr. Swain
Is my right hon. Friend aware that he has often said in this House that prevention is better than cure? Does he not consider that the crisis facing this country today would have been prevented had his Cabinet given a flat-rate increase right across the board during the early stages of negotiations? I am sure, having done my sums on this—[Interruption.] Listen to that lot, Mr. Speaker. If they were in India they would be sacred. Will my right hon. Friend agree that, had such a flat-rate increase been allowed, so that the man on £40 a week would have had the same increase as the man on £20,000 a year, three-quarters of the trouble which faces the Prime Minister and the Government today would have been prevented?

§ The Prime Minister
One of the problems that we face at present is that while there is one view in favour of increasing the pay at the bottom end of the scale by a substantial flat rate or percentage rate, at the other end of the scale—and, indeed, in the middle of the scale—the cry by those who are organised is for an improvement and an increase in the differentials. This is one of the dilemmas facing anyone who tries to devise policy in this field.

§ Mr. Montgomery
Will the Prime Minister some time today give some thought to the fact that today, in the Trafford district of Greater Manchester, four hospitals have closed down, partly due to the transport workers' strike and to picketing and partly due to the proposed threat of action on Monday by the National Union of Public Employees? Does he not think it is quite serious that 1949 sick people are being penalised in this way by industrial action? What view do his Government take about, and what do they propose to do to remedy, this serious position?

§ The Prime Minister
The hon. Gentleman knows full well that we clearly take a serious view of a matter of that sort, if it is as the hon. Gentleman has described. But, as he will also know, it is easier to say how serious a position is than to put it right. It would be possible to put it right by giving substantial increases in pay to all those who are coming to lobby us on Monday. If that is the Opposition's policy, they should say so clearly. If not, they should not just bellow "What are you going to do about it?".

§ Mr. Burden
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I am sorry to press this matter. However, over the years, there have grown up in the House certain rules of procedure and rules concerning the manner in which hon. Members are addressed. Not only do those rules preserve the dignity of this House here; they are consistent with the dignity of this House in the eyes of the country. I think that you will agree, Mr. Speaker, with the view that the terms in which the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) referred to statements made by my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition were against the best traditions of this House. I hope, Mr. Speaker, that you will make that perfectly clear.

§ Mr. Stoddart
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. I explained to you and to the House that I referred to the broadcast and the direction of that broadcast, and not to a person. I think that it does no good to this House of Commons if Members of Parliament are mealy-mouthed and do not state what they mean. I stated exactly what I meant, and I believe that it was the truth.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. There is not one right hon. or hon. Member who would like to be called hypocritical—not one of us.

§ Mr. William Hamilton
I do not know about that.

§ Mr. Speaker
Order. Every man according to his taste apparently—but it is not mine.
I agree with the hon. Member for Gillingham (Mr. Burden) that it behoves us all to try to maintain the proper standards in the Mother of Parliaments. Hansard is read widely throughout the Commonwealth—and not always to advantage, I may add.

§ Sir David Renton
Further to that point of order, Mr. Speaker. The hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) used the word "hypocrisy" as an accusation against my right hon. Friend the Leader of the Opposition. It is well known that to use that word as an allegation against an hon. Member is an unparliamentary proceeding. Should not the hon. Member, therefore, be called upon by you to withdraw that allegation?

§ Mr. Speaker
When the hon. Member for Swindon (Mr. Stoddart) rose later, I understood him to indicate that he was not making a personal charge. Therefore, although I have the same impression as the right hon. and learned Member for Huntingdonshire (Sir D. Renton), as the hon. Member for Swindon has told us that he made no personal charge, I think that the House would be better served by accepting that.

§ Mr. Stoddart
On a point of order, Mr. Speaker. Having checked carefully with the Official Report, I now realise that I did make a personal allusion to the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition which implied that she was a hypocrite. I am very happy to withdraw that remark.