HC Deb 21 February 1979 vol 963 cc423-31
Mr. Patrick Jenkin (by private notice)

asked the Secretary of State for Social Services if he will make a statement about the strike by ambulance men in London and elsewhere and if he will state the measures that he is taking to ensure that emergency services are covered.

The Secretary of State for Social Services (Mr. David Ennals)

As the House knows, most ambulance authorities have been able to provide only an emergency service for nearly a month as a result of official industrial action over pay. An unofficial group has been urging even tougher action and last week threatened a 24-hour strike for today and a withdrawal of all services.

At an official delegate meeting in London yesterday ambulance men voted by a substantial majority not to withdraw emergency services, though they did decide to continue their action while negotiations over pay proceed. After this decision was known, one of the leaders of the unofficial group announced that the threatened 24-hour strike had been postponed for a week.

Yet, as right hon. and hon. Members will know from radio and television reports, in several areas some ambulance men have ignored the advice of both their union and unofficial leaders and have walked away from their duties. I am sure that the whole House will join me in strongly condemning this reckless and irresponsible action. It will do nothing to help the pay negotiations, which I hope will lead to a very early settlement.

In London and Manchester this unofficial action has meant that, even with the support of police and voluntary organisations, the emergency service could not be maintained. Accordingly I have given authority for Service ambulances to provide assistance, and I shall do so in any area where this situation arises. I also authorised the use of Service ambulances in Somerset, but further volunteer ambulances became available and the Service ambulances have not so far been used. In Liverpool, where unofficial action has also taken place, I understand that so far the ambulance authority is managing with police and voluntary support.

The Whitley Council management side put a new offer to the ambulance men's negotiators on Wednesday of last week. This has been discussed by the staff side of the council and more widely with shop stewards. The Whitley Council meets tomorrow to discuss this offer and any other proposals. Today's unofficial action would be irresponsible at any time, but when an offer is on the table and is being negotiated it is utterly pointless.

Mr. Jenkin

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that the Opposition regard the unofficial action as immensely damaging to the ambulance service and totally pointless and futile? Will he join with us in paying tribute to the ambulance men and ambulance officers who not only during today's strike but over the past four or five weeks have, under immense difficulties, managed to maintain some sort of ambulance service? Will he now give the undertaking for which I asked two weeks ago, to do his utmost to ensure that not one of those men will suffer any reprisals or victimisation when the dispute is over? In particular, will he give the House an undertaking that none of them will lose his job as a result of his loyalty to the service?

Will the right hon. Gentleman confirm that nearly half the ambulance men are now earning over £90 a week?

Mrs. Dunwoody

No.

Mr. Jenkin

That is the official figure that I have had from the DHSS. I have been told that 46 per cent. of ambulance men are earning over £90 a week, with average overtime of 8.1 hours a week.

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is not one member of the ambulance service who has the slightest idea of what the management offer made last Wednesday will mean in his own pay packet? Is it not a gross failure of communications that none of those concerned, whether taking strike action or not, can form any view of what the 9 per cent. offer will mean to them? Does the right hon. Gentleman recognise that over the past five weeks there have been an average of 200 ambulance men per weekday in London sitting doing nothing and receiving full pay while doing so?

Mrs. Dunwoody

Day coach men only.

Mr. Jenkin

Does the right hon. Gentleman accept that that is the totally damaging consequence of his misguided and misconceived circular that he sent out at the beginning of the dispute? When is he going to cease being "the soft touch" that the Daily Mirror accused him of being yesterday?

Mr. Ennals

I shall cool down before I reply to the provocative nature of the right hon. Gentleman's questions. I shall try to deal coolly with difficult issues. First, I see no possible justification for those who have unofficially taken action designed to leave the population without emergency cover in times of accidents or serious illness. I do not need to join with the right hon. Gentleman, as that is what I have said myself.

Secondly, I pay tribute to the ambulance service for the work that it has done over many years. It is only in the past few weeks that we have concentrated upon the service provided by the ambulance men. We have failed to recognise that it is a service that has provided magnificent benefit for the public, night and day, in difficult circumstances.

When the dispute is settled—I hope that it will be settled very soon on the basis of the negotiations now taking place—I hope that there will be no bitterness. I hope that there will be no recriminations, no reprisals and no sackings. It is important that the morale of the service, which inevitably has suffered through industrial disputes and unofficial action that leads to disputation and bitterness between those acting officially and those acting unofficially, is not damaged. I hope that we shall not have any such problems.

The average gross pay for ambulance men is about £86 a week. That includes overtime work, shift duties, night duties and weekend work. These men often work unsocial hours to provide not merely an emergency service but a full service for the population. The manner in which the right hon. Gentleman referred to ambulance men will do no good either to negotiations or to ending the dispute. We should not talk in those terms.

The right hon. Gentleman said that many in the ambulance service did not know the nature of the offer that had been made on Wednesday. I think that that is true. It is a matter for the unions to decide. It is a matter of negotiation. The offers made were made as between the management side and the staff side of the Whitley Council. The staff side took the offers away to consult with its own members. It returned with some points. We shall see what proposals will be put forward tomorrow.

In his final question the right hon. Gentleman made some disparaging remarks about circulars that I sent to the health authorities. The position is clear. How they fulfil their duties and the decisions that they take in relation to management are the responsibility of the health and ambulance authorities; it is not for the Secretary of State to try to control the service from the centre. The idea that we should breathe down the necks of health authorities and tell management how it should do its job is one that I do not accept.

Mr. Spriggs

I thank my right hon. Friend for his statement. He has done justice this afternoon by commending the ambulance service to the House. May I point out to him that those of us who have been at the receiving end of the ambulance service can do nothing but commend the service to the nation?

Mr. Ennals

I appreciate what my hon. Friend said. He speaks for all my right hon. and hon. Friends in paying tribute to the work done by ambulance men the year round.

Mr. Body

Does the right hon. Gentleman consider that management has some responsibility in communicating the offer to the ambulance men?

Mr. Ennals

I honestly do not think so. We must look at this matter. There are problems. The staff side of the Whitley Council has had proposals put to it which it has taken away to consider. Those involved did not say that they had accepted those proposals. They have come forward with other suggestions which have been considered by the management side. The management side will put forward tomorrow what I have little doubt will be a final offer.

I understand the position of the unions. They do not want to start a general consultation of their members until they have reached the important position—which I hope they will reach tomorrow-of commending what has been negotiated for acceptance by their members. I hope that they will do that.

Mr. Pavitt

Will my right hon. Friend confirm that the leadership of the unions involved has made every effort and done a magnificent job in trying to contain unofficial strikes? Does not this show that, instead of the Tories trying constantly to weaken and undermine the unions and the media constantly attacking them, we should strengthen the organisation of the unions? In the longer term, is not a revision of the whole of the Whitley Council machinery within the National Health Service overdue?

Mr. Ennals

On the second question, the important report that was produced by Lord McCarthy was carefully studied. It led to considerable changes. It may very well be that other changes may be proposed. Certainly the Government are ready to look at them. We have already had a careful look at the way in which the Whitley Council system works. Basically it works well.

As to the first part of the question, dealing with the leadership of the unions in this case, I deeply regretted that the unions decided to embark upon this industrial action at all. I must say that at the beginning. I regret that they did so. However, they sought to contain it. Both the ambulance and health unions sought to ensure that emergency services were provided and have intervened on many occasions to ensure that their codes of conduct were respected. To that extent I pay tribute to them.

Sir Derek Walker-Smith

Will the right hon. Gentleman say what is the financial position in respect of individuals who withdraw their services in such circumstances as he explained? Do the contracts of employment provide for non-payment for the period in question?

Mr. Ennals

Those who are on strike receive no pay during the period of their strike.

Mr. Arthur Lewis

Does the Minister agree that it ill behoves those who know that company directors receive hundreds of pounds per week extra in their salary—one was reported last week as receiving £1,000 per week extra—to criticise ambulance workers receiving £90 per week? Is the Minister aware that ambulance workers, rightly I think, claim that as they have always been allied to the life-saving services, such as the police and the firemen, they should be treated like them? In view of the fact that the police are now helping out, why should we not pay the ambulance men the same as the police and firemen—as was always the case?

Mr. Ennals

My hon. Friend knows that the second half of the proposal that was made, apart from an offer of 9 per cent. from the beginning of the settlement date, was that an independent inquiry should be established into the pay of ambulance men as well as others within this group—local government and Health Service ancillary workers and manual workers in the universities. That is an important task. The inquiry will make a number of comparisons. I have little doubt that it will consider the position of those workers in relation to the police, firemen and others. However, it must be recognised that only 10 per cent. of the time and duties of ambulance men is spent dealing with emergencies. The rest is spent dealing with non-emergencies. Therefore, that emergency 10 per cent. is an important part of their task. There is no doubt that part of the purpose of comparability is to have a look at the basis of pay and conditions compared with others in comparable sectors of employment.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. This is an extension of Question Time. I propose to call three more speakers from each side.

Mr. Stephen Ross

Is the Minister aware that we welcome his condemnation of the unofficial strikes in London, Liverpool and elsewhere? Is he further aware that averages may be misleading? The figures that the Minister quoted are nothing like those which refer to ambulance men in the rural areas. Are the deliberations being deliberately delayed so as to arrive at a settlement of the local government dispute before the Health Service dispute is settled?

Mr. Ennals

No. Formal offers will have been presented today by the local authorities. But tomorrow formal offers will be made in the cases of the ambulance men and the National Health Service workers. It was concluded that it would be best, as has been the tradition, to look at these matters collectively. Therefore we hope that the offers that have been made this week will be accepted and form the basis of a final settlement.

Mr. Skinner

Will the Minister confirm that recent figures—despite the so-called figures that have been bandied about by moonlighting Members of Parliament and others—are not sufficient to keep ambulance men in the jobs and that many ambulance men are leaving? As to the question of communications, will the Minister take on board the fact that it is not so much that the ambulance men do not know what is the pay offer but more a question of their not liking what they see?

Mr. Ennals

We must see what happens. The final offer will be made tomorrow. I hope that the unions which have been actively involved in consultation will accept these proposals and commend them to their members. The unions are fully aware that the Government, in their offer, have taken considerable note of the need to give something extra for low-paid workers and that we have equally recognised that we have a responsibility for those who work in the public sector. The nature of their work should be properly compared with that of those who work in the private sector. This is why there is enormous merit in the decision that has been taken to establish the independent Standing Commission to involve itself in comparability studies, especially as they affect this group—and, I hope, later, the nurses and others.

Mr. Lawrence

Is the Secretary of State aware that he has been angering ambulance men for quite a long time, because he has repeatedly set his face against treating them as one of the emergency services? Does he realise that he should deal with that factor at this stage of the dispute?

Mr. Ennals

These matters are being dealt with through the Whitley Council. It is not for me to start making decisions on what should be the position of ambulance men in relation to others. This is precisely the purpose of a comparability study. It may well be that from that study conclusions will be drawn which are beneficial for the ambulance men. I do not know. The investigation will be independent. That is the right way in which to proceed rather than that the Secretary of State should seek to reach conclusions. After all, I am not the employer.

Mr. Molloy

Is my right hon. Friend aware that what has been said from the Opposition Front Bench is patently not true? The four general secretaries of the unions involved have instructed their members that the stage of negotiations so far is, they believe, a basis for an ultimate solution over a number of months. This information in detail has been sent to every branch of the Confederation of Health Service Employees throughout the country. When the right hon. Member for Wanstead and Woodford (Mr. Jenkin) makes his absurd statements he is not helping the cause at all. Indeed, I have to say with some reluctance, concerning people who are ignoring the recommendations of their leaders in the health unions and are causing unofficial strikes—[Interruption.]—that he is also making a contribution to this by being—

Mr. Speaker

Order.

Mr. Ennals

My hon. Friend speaks with authority—[Interruption.] Oh, yes, he does, particularly with his very close connection with COHSE. I am very grateful to him for what he said.

Mr. John Hunt

Will the right hon. Gentleman convey to the striking ambulance men that any public sympathy for their pay claim will very quickly evaporate in the wake of today's wholly irresponsible action, which he has rightly condemned? The right hon. Gentleman referred to earnings of £86 a week. Will he say how that compares with the weekly pay of the Service men who are today coping with the emergency calls?

Mr. Ennals

I will not go into questions of comparability. It is not for me to do that. I should not need to repeat what I have said, that this sort of unofficial action, not only against the advice of union leaders but against a vote taken at a properly constituted meeting yesterday, can do no good at all to the claim that the men have put forward.

Mrs. Dunwoody

Is my right hon. Friend aware that the normal part of the accident coverage is provided by men who work almost compulsory overtime? Should he not ask himself why there are such bad labour relations inside this essential service? Will he please make sure that he sets up an inspectorate to look at the conditions of ambulance men in the same way as the conditions of the police services are examined?

Mr. Ennals

No, I will not set up an inspectorate. I have a good deal of confidence in the health authorities and the way in which they fulfil their provision of ambulance services. The study of comparability will be the task of the independent commission.