9. Mr. loan Evansasked the Secretary of State for Industry what action he is proposing to take to aid the Kirkby Manufacturing and Engineering Company.
Mr. EvansWill my right hon. Friend be generous in considering what aid should be given to KME, in view of the fact that earlier today he said that £6,000 million had been given to private enterprise since 1974? This is an attempt at a workers' co-operative in an area of high unemployment, and it should be given every sympathy by the Government.
Mr. WilliamsI am sure that my hon. Friend is aware that we have given financial support to KME on four separate occasions. There was a grant when it was set up. My right hon. Friend and I gave it a further grant. It has had temporary employment subsidy. I provided interim finance while the working party was in operation. My hon. Friend will also know that the working party was set up at the request of the co-operative on the strict undertaking that it would abide by the recommendations of that working party. It is to be regretted that, substantially because of action on the part of certain people within the co-operative, that recommendation was never allowed to be implemented.
§ Mr. GryllsIs the Minister aware that most people who have followed the sad drama of Kirkby unreservedly condemn Ministers for having given nearly £5 million worth of aid, which has gone straight down the drain, against the advice on almost every occasion of the Industrial Development Advisory Board made up of employers and trade unionists? I ask him not to repeat this folly and send more money down that drain.
Mr. WilliamsThe hon. Gentleman will bear in mind that even the IDAB made the point in rejecting one of the co-operative's propositions that it had to bear in mind the difficulties within that locality in employment terms. This is a matter which the Government have also had to take into account. We have tried to consider each application on its merits as required under the Industry Act. The current application will be considered on the same basis.
§ Mr. HefferDoes not my right hon. Friend agree that in fact the money has not gone down the drain? If this support had not been given to KME workers. 13 they would have been on the dole in an area with 100,000 unemployed. That would have meant paying out unemployment and other benefits to those workers. May I remind my right hon. Friend that there is a PAC report which indicates that with certain changes the co-operative can be made profitable and that the workers have worked exceedingly hard in extremely difficult circumstances? Instead of everyone always criticising them, they need assistance and management expertise. At present, the Opposition are constantly knocking workers who are doing their best in a difficult situation.
Mr. WilliamsWhen I went, at the request of the directors of the co-operative, to speak to the workers, other than for perhaps three or four people on whom understandably the Press and television concentrated, the impression which came over to me very strongly was one of people who desperately wanted to work. One respects that wish. Our aim is to ensure that whatever work is provided there is provided on a long-term viable basis. It would not do a service to the work force in Kirkby if we kept propping up projects which were not properly considered and properly conceived. I will still consider financial support for a project which offers long-term viability.
§ Mr. TebbitWill the Minister confirm that the money that has gone to Kirkby is included in the sum of £600 million or so of financial assistance to private industry? Does he not agree that most of the money which goes as so-called assistance to industry goes for the same reason that this money was given to Kirkby—that is, to provide jobs in areas where people have resolutely refused to cooperate with management in making industry productive enough to stand on its own feet?
§ Mr. HefferHe is a squalid little man.
Mr. WilliamsNearly all the projects which come to me—many brought and supported by Conservative Members concerning factories in their constituencies—require considerable rationalisation and restructuring. I think, for example, of the textile and footwear industries where fin- 14 ancial support has been given with an acceptance by trades unions and management that restructuring and higher productivity with, if necessary, the shedding of manpower, are an essential part of ensuring the long-term viability of the industry.
§ Later—
§ Mr. AdleyOn a point of order, Mr. Speaker. I know that we are used to robust debate in the House. Nobody takes exception to that. However, may I ask you to say whether you think that the expression used by the hon. Member for Birmingham, Perry Barr (Mr. Rooker) about my hon. Friend the Member for Chingford (Mr. Tebbit) was in order? My hon. Friend made a comment that the hon. Gentleman did not like. The hon. Gentleman replied that my hon. Friend was wallowing in vomit. Will you, Mr. Speaker, rule that that is going too far, even taking into account the language that we sometimes use in the House?
§ Mr. SpeakerOrder. There are often noises below the Gangway which I am unable properly to hear. That is not for lack of hearing. It is that nobody in this place can hear everything that is said below the Gangway. I know how fortunate I am. I know that complimentary—and other—remarks are exchanged there.
In reply to the hon. Gentleman, I would say that it behoves all of us to remember that we are the highest court in the land, that we are the Mother of Parliaments and that we should behave according to the high office that we are privileged to hold.