HC Deb 13 February 1979 vol 962 cc939-40
4. Mr. Norman Atkinson

asked the Secretary of State for Defence what he estimates would be the total cost per person of four-year apprenticeships in tool-making and other engineering trades with full day release if such additional places were to be made available in Ministry of Defence workshops.

The Minister of State, Ministry of Defence (Dr. John Gilbert)

The cost of four-year engineering apprenticeships with the MOD is about £18,000 gross. If due allowance is made for the apprentice's contribution to production, this figure falls to around £16,000. We have substantially increased our apprentice intake over the last two years. Our 1979 entry should be of the order of 2,300, as compared with the 1,700 to 1,800 originally planned in 1976. We consequently have no capacity for additional training of this sort.

Mr. Atkinson

Does not my right hon. Friend agree that, now that there is overwhelming pressure for the defence workshops, like the railway workshops, to take in work not directly connected with defence contracts, the time has come to double the intake of 2,000 scheduled for next year if the Ministry of Defence is to make its contribution towards the provision of craftsmen practising engineering skills?

Dr. Gilbert

I think that in this direction the Ministry of Defence has a record with which even my hon. Friend would be satisfied. The ratio of apprentices to craftsmen in Ministry of Defence establishments is about one to five, as compared with one to eight in the engineering and shipbuilding industries as a whole. At present we have about 8,000 apprentices under training, of whom about 7,000 are craft apprentices. We train far more young people than we are able to use ourselves, and provide a constant supply to the rest of industry, for which it is very grateful.

Mr. Cryer

Does not my right hon. Friend accept that if the Ministry is to exercise its responsibilities towards apprentices and other workers inside the Ministry of Defence it ought to be developing alternative programmes to move away from the manufacture of weaponry and towards the manufacture of peaceful items? Does not the contract for Iran, which now appears to be prejudiced, with the loss of about £2 billion worth of work, bring it home at long last to the Ministry of Defence that it ought to look at alternative programmes instead of the production of weapons for extermination?

Dr. Gilbert

I had an exchange with my hon. Friend on the subject on the last occasion that we had Ministry of Defence questions. I pointed out then that, with his experience he had of the Department of Industry, I thought that he would have appreciated that, while these are very important questions, they are questions for my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for Industry. However, having said that, I think that my hon. Friend ought to recognise that the range of skills that we give to apprentices in Ministry of Defence establishments is suitable for a wide range of activities. It includes fitting trades, shipwrights, boilermakers, coppersmiths, plumbers, joiners, carpenters, pattern makers, welders, instrument makers, sail makers, printers and lithographers. That is a pretty good record.