HC Deb 12 February 1979 vol 962 cc771-3
10. Mr. Grist

asked the Secretary of State for Wales what proposals he has to increase expenditure on those sectors of the Welsh economy as detailed in table 4.3 of the Government's expenditure plans, Cmnd. Paper No. 7439.

Mr. Alec Jones

The Government's plans for expenditure are as shown in the table mentioned in the question.

Mr. Grist

In view of that and previous answers this afternoon, how can the "Yes" campaigners for the Welsh Assembly promise more jobs, better housing and much better health services, all of which involve greater expenditure? Will not that mislead the people of Wales?

Mr. Alec Jones

I do not know. I have read a good many speeches on both sides in the campaign. I have seen far more fantasies than facts, and a great deal more heat than light. It is certain that within the block grant announced by my right hon. and learned Friend, the Assembly, as an elected body representing men and women from all over Wales, is more likely to accept and fix priorities in keeping with the needs of Wales.

Mr. Anderson

Is my hon. Friend prepared to act an an umpire between my right hon. and learned Friend the Secretary of State, who said that the block grant would be assessed on the same basis, as at present, and my hon. Friend the Member for Flint, East (Mr. Jones), who said that there would be more hospitals after an Assembly was set up? How can we possibly get more hospitals and roads if the block grant is the same? How can we get more from the same, or even less?

Mr. Alec Jones

I believe that the quality of decisions will be improved as a result of the democratic process.

Mr. Wyn Roberts

The Minister must be joking.

Mr. Alec Jones

On many occasions we have debated decisions and priorities decided by nominated bodies and bureaucracy.[Interruption.] Few hon. Members —including some of my hon. Friends who are bellowing from behind—accepted the priorities which I might personally have supported.

Mr. Wigley

Is the Minister aware that the table of housing allocation of funds to Wales shows that Wales receives about £50 million less—on a per capita basis—than it would if it had the average for the United Kingdom? On a needs basis, the housing stock in Wales is older than that of the United Kingdom. Therefore, there is a greater shortfall. Does not that indicate a need for a better mechanism for allocating funds to Wales, which the Assembly would provide?

Mr. Alec Jones

One thing stands out in the housing figures. I have reported it to the House on several occasions. For two consecutive years there were considerable underspends on housing in Wales. However, the figures referred to show that there would be an annual average increase in spending on housing of 5 per cent over the four-year period. Last year—and next year—the allocations for house building in Wales were such that all local authorities were told to proceed with their capital programmes intact. If they failed to do so it was their fault, because they failed to live up to the needs in their areas.