STANDING COMMITTEES OF COUNCIL (Hansard, 7 February 1979)

§ Mr. Hodgson
I beg to move amendment No. 6, in page 3, leave out line 1.

§ Mr. Deputy Speaker
With this we may take the following amendments No. 21, in clause 8, page 6, line 12, leave out 'a joint committee' and insert 'as joint committees'.
No. 23, in clause 8, page 6 line 14. leave out 'the Health Visiting Joint Committee' and insert 'a Health Visiting Joint Committee and a District Nursing Joint Committee'. No. 24, in clause 8, page 6, line 17, at end insert 'respective'.
No. 26, in clause 8, page 6, line 18, after 'visiting', insert 'and district nursing'.

§ Mr. Hodgson
Amendment No. 6 is a paving amendment which will excise the district nursing standing committee from the standing committees of the Central Council and substitute a district nursing joint committee which will parallel that set up for health visitors in clause 8.
This matter was debated in Committee and we argued that the Briggs committee referred to district nurses as being on a par with health visitors and district midwives in their importance in the community and that these basic field workers had an extremely important role.
We feel that the role of the district nurse has been neglected in the Bill. The demographic projections for the next quarter of a century show an enormous increase in the number of elderly and very elderly and will mean an increased burden on the community care services in which district nurses play such an important part. The district nursing service provides a flexible form of care which is suitable for town, country and suburb in a way that perhaps other sections of the nursing profession can match.
The Minister accepted in Committee the importance of setting up a joint committee and said that he intended to set up a district nursing standing committee by statutory instrument as soon as possible. We are delighted to hear that, but I wonder whether it would not be more useful and clearer if the reference to district nursing standing committee were removed.
Health visiting is not covered in that section of the Bill. It has a joint committee, a national board and a general council. District nursing will immediately get off as a sort of half-and-half child, with a reference in clause 3(3)(c). Following the Minister's statutory instrument, the provisions of clause 8 will also, I presume, apply to district nursing. This seems to be illogical and to lead possibly to unnecessary complication and duplication.
We dealt with this matter in Committee. I have to tell the Minister that, on re-reading his arguments, I do not find them entirely convincing. We appear to have higher and lower levels of representation. In the light of what the right hon. Gentleman said earlier, it may be that he will be able to see his way clear to clari- 456 fying and codifying the positon of district nurses.

§ Mr. Moyle
I am only too happy to associate myself with the extremely nice remarks by the hon. Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Hodgson) about district nurses. The House would expect me to do so at this juncture because district nurses are as important to the development of a proper preventive health service as health visitors. The development of health visitors and district nurses goes forward together from that point of view, although obviously there are differences in their training, their professional preparation and their roles. They are essential people. There are not enough district nurses, just as there are not enough health visitors. I hope that they will increase in number and play an increasing role in the preventive health care service.
In my view, the district nurses will have a far more flexible form of standing committee to look after their interests than the midwives and health visitors. The principal reason why the midwives and health visitors have their form of committee is entirely historic. The district nurses have been prepared to settle for one set up by statutory instrument which can be modified.
When this matter was debated in Committee, I undertook that if the representatives of the profession came to me with agreed proposals on whether there should be a joint committee for district nurses as opposed to an ordinary standing committee, I should consider them carefully and sympathetically. The panel of assessors for district nursing has pressed for the express provision of a joint committee to be written into the Bill, and the Royal College of Nursing has pledged its support. Apart from that, at present there seems to be no general desire that there should be a joint standing committee for district nurses. Therefore, I counsel the House not to write this into the law. There is nothing to stop a joint committee for district nurses being set up if the majority feeling in the profession moves in that direction. But I do not wish to be compelled to do so.

§ Mr. Hodgson
In the light of the continuing consultation going on about 457 clause 8 involving the health visitors, can the Minister assure the House that he will be prepared to consider representations from the district nurses in that set of involved discussions which must continue? Will he undertake that the district nurses can and will be included in those discussions, so that if the need is felt for a standing committee the necessary amendment can be made in the other place?

§ Mr. Moyle
I am quite prepared to give that undertaking—in respect not only of the district nurses but of the other interested parties in this whole exercise.

§ Dr. Vaughan
I was glad to hear what the Minister said. He gave an important undertaking.
I wish to associate myself with the comments of my hon. Friend the Member for Walsall, North (Mr. Hodgson) about district nursing. In that connection, I congratulate the Government on not seeking to alter the amendment made in Committee, which was to take out occupational health nursing as a special group. We felt that it was important that it should have a special section, and I am glad that the Government now agree.

§ Mr. Hodgson
In the light of the assurance given by the Minister and the fact that the consultations are continuing, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.

§ Mr. Moyle
I beg to move amendment No. 7, in line 5, after first 'Council', insert—'(a)'.
This again is an amendment designed to ensure that members of the appropriate committees have practical experience. It meets an undertaking which I gave in Committee. The amendment which had been moved at that stage did not meet the wishes of the parliamentary draftsman. This present wording does that. I hope that it gives full expression to the wishes of the Committee.

§ Dr. Vaughan
I am glad that the Government have accepted the views of the Committee. The parliamentary draftsman has improved on the wording that we considered in Committee. The Opposition are very pleased to support this amendment.

§ Mr. Moyle
I beg to move amendment No. 8, in line 6, at end insert: 'and (b) shall provide for a majority on the committee to be persons who work or have worked in the professional field with which it is primarily concerned'. The same consideration applies here as applied to amendment No. 7. I doubt whether hon. Members will wish me to expound further.