HC Deb 06 February 1979 vol 962 cc209-13

Mr. Teddy Taylor(by private notice) asked the Secretary of State for Scotland if he will make a statement on his discussions yesterday with unions representing public service employees in Scotland.

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Bruce Millan)

I met senior representatives from Scotland of the four unions concerned with pay negotiations for local government manual workers and health service ancillaries and ambulance men in London on Monday 5 February. We discussed the present stage of pay negotiations for these services. We also discussed the Government's guidelines on pay, including the proposals for "underpinning" for lower paid workers and for comparability studies.

Following an earlier approach from me to discuss these matters, three of the four unions concerned had decided last week that they would suspend strike action for the time being. The other union, the National Union of Public Employees, decided to put into operation a programme of industrial action. At yesterday's meeting the unions confirmed their previous positions in this respect, but said that they would be reconsidering the whole question on Saturday of this week.

In the meantime, as the House knows, limited industrial action is taking place in both the Health Service and local government service in Scotland, some of it with union approval and some against the advice of the unions concerned.

Mr. Taylor

Will the Secretary of State agree that, while we have been relatively fortunate in Scotland, in that disruption of our public services has been limited and sporadic, there is now a real danger of a major disruption if no settlement is reached this week? Will the Secretary of State confirm the remarks attributed to the union representatives that extended action might well commence as from 12 February if no deal is struck?

Will the Secretary of State give an assurance that, in the unhappy event of disruptive action taking place, clear advice will be given by him that all possible steps should be taken to keep schools going, even if it means picket lines being crossed, particularly as the Scottish schoolchildren have already lost a good deal of education because of the vehicle drivers' strike and the adverse weather conditions?

Will there also be clear advice given that hospital services should be maintained and that volunteers should be used if required?

Are any contingency plans available to deal with any health hazards arising out of disruption in the sewerage service?

Will the Secretary of State clarify the remarks attributed to him in the Scottish press this morning that the Government has made its position clear in financing settlements beyond 10 per cent. and that any further increases will have to be paid for out of the rates or a reduction in services"? Does this represent the policy of the Government? Is the Secretary of State aware that there is not a great deal of clarity as to the figure that the Government are adopting? For the guidance of the unions, the ratepayers and the local authorities, will he say whether the figure is 10 per cent., 8.8 per cent., or what the figure is? I hope that the Secretary of State will clarify the Government's position on the wage negotiations.

Mr. Millan

As the hon. Gentleman has said, the industrial action has been to a limited extent in Scotland as compared with England. I am thankful that that is so. But I regret industrial action of any sort in these essential services. If the position were to get worse, naturally I would consider what advice I could offer in a more general way. But, in the meantime, for example, with the Health Service, I have asked local hospitals, and other people who are having difficulty, to try to sort out these difficulties at local level. I am keeping a watch on the position and if there is need for further action from me I shall take it. Certain plans have already been drawn up in case contingency arrangements are required.

My right hon. Friend the Prime Minister answered a question concerning the level of settlements a few minutes ago, and I do not think there is anything I need add to that.

Mr. Robert Hughes

Will my right hon. Friend amplify the discussions that he had concerning the comparability study which has been offered as part of a package deal? Will he tell us how this has been developed, when it is likely to begin, in what circumstances, and who will carry out the comparability study?

Mr. Milian

I do not think that I can answer some of these questions with precision at the moment because they depend on the unions and employers concerned reaching agreement. But, on the National Health Service, I can say that there is virtual agreement between the management and the unions about terms of reference and the other matters mentioned by my hon. Friend.

There is to be a meeting tomorrow about local authority services. I think that, in principle, comparability studies have been accepted by each side, employers and unions, but the detailed terms of reference and the mechanics of carrying out the comparability study and implementing the results of it are matters for discussion. I imagine that they will be discussed in detail tomorrow. The Government are very anxious to encourage comparability studies.

Mr. Rifkind

Will the Secretary of State accept that he has not answered the question put by my hon. Friend the Member for Glasgow, Cathcart (Mr. Taylor) on the level of financing that the Government will approve? Will he say categorically whether he indicated to the trade union officials whom he met yesterday that the Government would not be prepared to finance any settlements beyond 10 per cent., as attributed to him in this morning's press, that being quite contrary to the indication made by the Prime Minister today?

Mr. Millan

I do not think that anything I said yesterday contradicted what the Prime Minister said on Saturday or today. As the Prime Minister made clear on each occasion, the Government are looking for single figure settlements.

Mr. William Hamilton

With specific reference to the nurses' salary claim, will my right hon. Friend make clear whether he intends to have or is having separate discussions with the Royal College of Nursing, as distinct from unions such as NUPE and the Confederation of Health Service Employees?

Mr. Millan

I am not having discussions at the moment. My hon. Friend knows that the settlement date for nurses is 1 April, and negotiations will take place in good time before that. There are certain claims which the nurses have outstanding from the previous round of negotiations, but these are not under active discussion at the moment. My hon. Friend will also recollect that, when my right hon. Friend the Prime Minister made his original statement about comparability studies, he mentioned nurses specifically as a possibility for a group of employees who might be covered by a comparability study. But these are matters for further negotiation. It is not a question of the Government introducing comparability studies off their own hand. Both the unions and employers concerned must want the studies to take place.

Mr. Buchanan-Smith

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware of the very severe disruption that occurred last week, for example, at Ninewells hospital, in Dundee, and the very severe burden that this put upon medical staff? What will he advise health boards to do in the event of further disruption in relation to offers of voluntary help?

Mr. Millan

One would have to deal with that on an ad hoc basis. Some of the action that took place at Ninewells was against the advice of the unions concerned. When the action was drawn to my attention, I asked the area health board to have discussions the following morning—which it did—with the local officers of the unions concerned. Arising from those discussions, certain arrangements were made, which have been implemented as from yesterday, to reduce considerably the disruption at Ninewells hospital. I believe that at present it is far better to deal with these matters on an ad hoc basis and at local level.

Several Hon. Members

rose—

Mr. Speaker

Order. I propose to call those hon. Members who have been standing.

Mr. Monro

In the light of the Government's non-existent policies over recent weeks, can the Secretary of State assure us that contingency plans are ready now to deal with further developments in the Health Service and the local authority service, particularly with regard to water and sewerage over the next fortnight?

Mr. Millan

As I have already said, there are contingency plans for essential services. But I hope very much that the action in Scotland will be limited. In fact, I hope that in relation to these essential services there will be no industrial action at all. But where this has already taken place, as it has with regard to the water service in Ayrshire, we are holding the position. However, there is further action that I can take if it is found to he necessary.

Mr. Fairgrieve

I return to the unanswered question. May I ask the right hon. Gentleman specifically whether the Government are prepared to finance settlements above 8.8 per cent.?

Mr. Millan

I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not listen to what the Prime Minister said this afternoon. The answer is "Yes, within a negotiating margin"—as my right hon. Friend said. I have nothing to add to what he said.

Mr. Alexander Fletcher

That was the point on which I wanted to press the Secretary of State. He has still not made it clear whether the Government are prepared to finance above 8.8 per cent. or 10 per cent.

Mr. Millan

I ask the hon. Gentleman, who I know is a little slow on the uptake, to look at Hansard tomorrow, because he will see that the Prime Minister made the position absolutely clear.