§ 4.0 p.m.
§ Mr. John Cope (Gloucestershire, South)I beg to move,
That leave be given to bring in a Bill to clarify the law on picketing; and for connected purposes.Hon. Members will have observed that the motion refers to a Bill not to change the law on picketing but to clarify the law as it exists. I know I am treading on lawyers' ground, but I am not intimidated by that. The law says that peaceful persuasion is lawful, that obstruction of people or vehicles is unlawful, that large numbers intimidate—I use the word there in its normal sense of illegal force —and that picketing is lawful in pursuit of a trade dispute but not remote from that dispute.So far, I hope hon. Members in all parts of the House are agreed. As for remoteness, the Attorney-General yesterday took the trouble to write to the editor of The Daily Telegraph, no less, to explain that remoteness in this context is not a novel concept but was known certainly in 1976, when the last Act on the subject was passed. But although the principles as I have stated them and as Ministers have stated them are clear, there are some doubts particularly about the definition of numbers and of remoteness. In recent weeks these doubts have been exploited and used to damage both the Government and British industry. I believe that these doubts should be removed by statute, and this is the purpose, and the whole purpose, of my Bill.
I do not want to try to persuade the House that any particular size of picket line constitutes intimidation by numbers, nor to press for a particular definition of "remote" in this context. Those matters can be discussed in detail on Second Reading, if I am given leave to introduce the Bill, and in Committee. I hope that it is not necessary for hon. Members opposite to agree with me absolutely on these points at this stage for them to support the view that this House should settle these points of definition and should clarify the law. I repeat: this is the sole purpose of my Bill today.
We owe it to the courts to carry such a Bill to protect them from the disgraceful and politically motivated attacks that 225 have been made upon them, such as that made last week by Mr. Arthur Scargill, although I realise that he was only following bad examples which have been set for him in the past, by—for example—the Leader of the House. As I see him on the Bench, may I say to the Leader of the House that if we, the legislators, do not support the guardians of the law, our job as legislators ceases to have much point.
A Bill of the kind I seek leave to introduce is necessary also for the police who have to enforce the law and who have great difficulty in doing so at present, as we all understand. We owe it also to the people who have a right to go about their business in peace. We also owe a Bill of this kind to the pickets themselves who wish to pursue their lawful aims in lawful ways. All these groups need to have a firm line and a clear definition from which to work and would benefit from it.
Above all, we should pass a Bill of this kind to safeguard this very institution of Parliament. We cannot complain that power is drifting away to irresponsible groups of wreckers if we do not dare to use the authority won for this place by our predecessors. It is our duty to set down the framework of law for the protection of the people. I do not of course claim that one Ten-Minute Bill, with the very limited purpose that I have outlined can alone stop the slide of this country, or anything like it; but this measure is designed to seek out and take up areas of agreement between the two sides of the House against the wreckers outside.
If we pull together across the Floor of the House, we can reassert our authority and leadership; and the people will be with us if we do. The volunteers and the resourcefulness of the British character can save this country now as they have done in the past. I say to my parliamentary neighbours as well as to the rest of the House that I believe the wreckers will be defeated and that the sooner this House reasserts itself to lead to that defeat, the better.
I realise that it may be impossible for right hon. Members opposite to agree even to clarify the present law on picketing as stated by Ministers. If so, it will fall to us on this side in a few months to do what we can. [An HON. MEMBER: "Or weeks."] Or weeks. But I would 226 much prefer, and I hope that there are at least some opposite who would prefer it, if it were to be on an agreed basis, a joint effort as would be proposed in the Bill I seek leave to introduce and as the right hon. Lady who leads my party has suggested.
§ 4.7 p.m.
§ Mr. George Robertson (Hamilton) rose—
§ Mr. SpeakerIs the hon. Gentleman rising to oppose?
§ Mr. RobertsonYes, Mr. Speaker.
It is perhaps only because I have come recently to this institution of Parliament that I do not have the same faith as others in the inherent ability of Acts of Parliament passed in 20 minutes or in 20 months automatically to affect the world outside the gates of this building. This is not the time, and this is certainly not the place, to start yet another experiment in legislation in the complex field of industrial relations. Surely, if we have learned anything on both sides of this House, it is that perhaps industry in its industrial relations should be allowed to get on with its own affairs without perpetual interference in a niggling kind of way in areas where there is no clear need to do so.
From practical experience in industrial relations, I believe that this Bill and its intention would contribute not one whit to the problems that we as a country are facing. This form of legislation would simply be seen as a counter-productive and emotional reaction to present individual circumstances and would have no effect, other than a damaging effect, on what is going on in the country today. The fundamental point that we as legislators in Parliament have to accept is that a degree of consensus must exist in the country for any legislation we put forward.
Earlier this afternoon the right hon. Lady the Leader of the Opposition quoted the chief constable of Manchester in support of her thesis that additional legislation is necessary in this field. May I refresh the right hon. Lady's memory on the viewpoint of another policeman? Sir Robert Mark was Commissioner of Police of the Metropolis in London. In 1973, on a BBC television programme, the Dimbleby lecture, he made a speech 227 in which one of his fundamental points was:
Those who frame new laws sometimes give insufficient weight to the difficulties of enforcement. They devote much care and time to debating the moral implications but assume, often quite wrongly, that people can be made to obey them.There is a more important point here, from a practising policeman of high repute:Once enacted, some laws are dumped like unwanted babies on the backdoor of the police station with little or no inquiry as to their eventual health.We have reached a stage in our industrial relations history at which there appears to be a consensus that some actions by a minority of people involved in picketing are perhaps giving rise to genuine public concern, but the vast majority of those who exercise their democratic right in a free society to picket at their place of work are not those who have led to that stimulated debate. It would be wrong to take precipitate action in Parliament to deal with the problem.The Government have circulated, and are in the middle of discussions on, a
§ code of conduct relating to picketing. It includes the practical problems involved in picketing and legislation. The right hon. Member for Lowestoft (Mr. Prior) was quoted in the Financial Times on 13 January as saying that the next Conservative Government would reaffirm the existing law on the nature of peaceful persuasion and would seek a widespread agreement on a sensible code of conduct.
§ What could be a more inappropriate time to introduce a Bill on the spur of the moment? It has no possibility of success, but it would undermine the consultations taking place between the Government and both sides of industry. It would be an emotional bed bath for the House and would have no effect other than to anger and irritate. It would do no good and much harm to British industrial relations.
§ Question put, pursuant to Standing Order No. 13 (Motions for leave to bring in Bills and Nomination of Select Committees at Commencement of Public Business):—
§ The House divided: Ayes 209. Noes 207.
231| Division No.69] | AYES | [4.21 p.m |
| Adley, Robert | Douglas-Hamilton, Lord James | Holland, Philip |
| Aitken, Jonathan | Drayson, Burnaby | Howe, Rt Hon Sir Geoffrey |
| Alison, Michael | Durant, Tony | Howell, David (Guildford) |
| Amery, Rt Hon Julian | Dykes, Hugh | Howell, Raiph (North Norfolk) |
| Arnold, Tom | Elliott, Sir William | Hunt, David (Wirral) |
| Atkins, Rt Hon H. (Spelthorne) | Eyre, Reginald | Hunt, John (Ravensbourne) |
| Atkinson, David (B'mouth, East) | Fairbairn, Nicholas | Hurd, Douglas |
| Baker, Kenneth | Fairgrieve, Russell | Hutchison, Michael Clark |
| Banks, Robert | Farr, John | Irving, Charles (Cheltenham) |
| Beith, A. J. | Fell, Anthony | James, David |
| Bell, Ronald | Fletcher, Alex (Edinburgh N) | Jenkin, Rt Hon P. (Wanst'd&W'df'd) |
| Bennett, Dr Reginald (Fareham) | Fletcher-Cooke, Charles | Jessel, Toby |
| Benyon, W. | Fookes, Miss Janet | Johnson Smith, G. (E Grinstead) |
| Berry, Hon Anthony | Forman, Nigel | Jopling, Michael |
| Biggs-Davison, John | Fraser, Rt Hon H. (Stafford & St) | Joseph, Rt Hon Sir Keith |
| Blaker, Peter | Freud, Clement | Kellett-Bowman, Mrs Elaine |
| Boscawen, Hon Robert | Fry, Peter | Kilfedder, James |
| Bowden, A. (Brighton, Kemptown) | Gardiner, Edward (S Fylde) | Kimball, Marcus |
| Boyson, Dr Rhodes (Brent) | Gilmour, Rt Hon Sir Ian (Chesham) | King, Evelyn (South Dorset) |
| Braine, Sir Bernard | Gilmour, Sir John (East Fife) | King, Tom (Bridgwater) |
| Brittan, Leon | Glyn, Dr Alan | Knight, Mrs Jill |
| Brooke, Hon Peter | Goodhart, Phillip | Knox, David |
| Brotherton, Michael | Goodhew, Victor | Lamont, Norman |
| Brown, Sir Edward (Bath) | Goodlad, Alastair | Latham, Michael (Melton) |
| Bryan, Sir Paul | Gow, Ian (Eastbourne) | Lawerence, Ivan |
| Buchanan-Smith, Alick | Gower, Sir Raymond (Barry) | Lawson, Nigel |
| Budgen, Nick | Grant, Anthony (Harrow C) | Le Marchant, Spencer |
| Bulmer, Esmond | Grey, Hamish | Lester, Jim (Beeston) |
| Burden, F. A. | Grieve, Percy | Lewis, Kenneth (Rutland) |
| Butler, Adam (Bosworth) | Grist, Ian | Lloyd, Ian |
| Carlisle, Mark | Hamilton, Michael (Sallibury) | Luce, Richard |
| Channon, Paul | Hampson, Dr Keith | McAdden, Sir Stephen |
| Churchill, W. S. | Hannam, John | McCrindle, Robert |
| Clark, William (Cryodon S) | Harvie Anderson, Rt Hon Miss | Macfarlane, Neil |
| Cockcroft, John | Haselhurst, Alan | MacGregor, John |
| Cooke, Robert (Bristol W) | Havers, Rt Hon Sir Michael | MacKay, Andrew (Stechford) |
| Costain, A. P. | Hayhoe, Barney | Macmillan, Rt Hon M. (Farnham) |
| Crouch, David | Heseltine, Michael | McNair-Wilson, M. (Newbury) |
| Dodsworth, Geoffrey | Hicks, Robert | McNair-Wilson, P. (New Forest) |
| Doig, Peter | Hodgson, Robin | Marshall, Michael (Arundel) |
| Mather, Carol | Price, David (Eastleigh) | Steel, Rt Hon David |
| Maude, Angus | Prior, Rt Hon James | Stewart, Rt Hon Donald |
| Mawby, Ray | Pym, Rt Hon Francis | Stradling Thomas, J. |
| Maxwell-Hyslop, Robin | Raison, Timothy | Tapsell, Peter |
| Mayhew, Patrick | Rathbone, Tim | Taylor, Teddy (Cathcart) |
| Miller, Hal (Bromsgrove) | Rees, Peter (Dover & Deal) | Tebbit, Norman |
| Mills, Peter | Renton, Rt Hon Sir D. (Hunts) | Temple-Morris, Peter |
| Mitchell, David (Basingstoke) | Rhodes James, R. | Thatcher, Rt Hon Margaret |
| Moate, Roger | Ridley, Hon Nicholas | Thompson, George |
| Monro, Hector | Ridsdale, Julian | Thorpe, Rt Hon Jeremy (N Devon) |
| Montgomery, Fergus | Rifkind, Malcolm | Townsend, Cyril D. |
| Moore, John (Croydon C) | Roberts, Michael (Cardiff NW) | Trotter, Neville |
| More, Jasper (Ludlow) | Rodgers, Sir John (Sevenoaks) | van Straubenzee, W. R. |
| Morgan-Giles, Rear-Admiral | Rossi, Hugh (Hornsey) | Wainwright, Richard (Colne V) |
| Morris, Michael (Northampton S) | Rost, Peter (SE Derbyshire) | Walker, Rt Hon P. (Worcester) |
| Morrison, Hon Charles (Devizes) | Royle, Sir Anthony | Walker-Smith, Rt Hon Sir Derek |
| Morrison, Hon Peter (Chester) | St. John-Stevas, Norman | Wall, Patrick |
| Mudd, David | Shaw, Giles (Pudsey) | Walters, Dennis |
| Nelson, Anthony | Shelton, William (Streatham) | Warren, Kenneth |
| Neubert, Michael | Shepherd, Colin | Weatherill, Bernard |
| Newton, Tony | Shersby, Michael | Wells, John |
| Normanton, Tom | Silvester, Fred | Whitelaw, Rt Hon William |
| Nott, John | Sinclair, Sir George | Whitney, Raymond |
| Onslow, Cranley | Skeet, T. H. H. | Wiggin, Jerry |
| Page, Rt Hon R. Graham (Crosby) | Smith, Cyril (Rochdale) | Winterton, Nicholas |
| Page, Richard (Workington) | Smith, Dudley (Warwick) | Young, Sir G. (Ealing, Acton) |
| Pardoe, John | Smith, Timothy John (Ashfield) | Younger, Hon George |
| Parkinson, Cecil | Speed, Keith | |
| Pattie, Geoffrey | Spicer, Jim (W Dorset) | TELLERS FOR THE AYES: |
| Penhaligon, David | Stanbrook, Ivor | Mr. John Cope and |
| Peyton, Rt Hon John | Stanley, John | Mr. Patrick Cormack |
| Noes | ||
| Archer, Rt Hon Peter | Dempsey, James | Jeger, Mrs Lena |
| Armstrong, Ernest | Dewar, Donald | Jenkins, Hugh (Putney) |
| Ashley, Jack | Dormand, J. D. | John, Brynmor |
| Ashton, Joe | Dunn, James A. | Johnson, James (Hull West) |
| Atkins, Ronald (Preston N) | Dunwoody, Mrs Gwyneth | Johnson, Walter (Derby S) |
| Atkinson, Norman (H'gey, Tott' ham) | Edge, Geoff | Jones, Barry (East Flint) |
| Bagier, Gordon A. T. | Edwards, Robert (Wolv SE) | Kaufman, Rt Hon Gerald |
| Barnett, Guy (Greenwich) | Ellis, John (Brig & Scun) | Kerr, Russell |
| Bates, Alf | Ellis, Tom (Wrexham) | Kilroy-Silk, Robert |
| Bean, R. E. | Ennals, Rt Hon David | Lambie, David |
| Benn, Rt Hon Anthony Wedgwood | Evans, Fred (Caerphilly) | Lamborn, Harry |
| Bennett, Andrew (Stockport N) | Evans, John (Newton) | Lamond, James |
| Bidwell, Sydney | Ewing, Harry (Stirling) | Latham, Arthur (Paddington) |
| Bishop, Rt Hon Edward | Faulds, Andrew | Lestor, Miss Joan (Eton & Slough) |
| Blenkinsop, Arthur | Fernyhough, Rt Hon E. | Lewis, Ron (Carlisle) |
| Booth, Rt Hon Albert | Flannery, Martin | Litterick, Tom |
| Boothroyd, Miss Betty | Fletcher, Ted (Darlington) | Lofthouse, Geoffrey |
| Bottomley, Rt Hon Arthur | Foot, Rt Hon Michael | Luard, Evan |
| Bradley, Tom | Forrester, John | McDonald, Dr Oonagh |
| Brown, Hugh D. (Provan) | Fowler, Gerald (The Wrekin) | McElhone, Frank |
| Brown, Robert C (Newcastle W) | Fraser, John (Lambeth, N'w'd) | McKay, Allen (Penistone) |
| Buchan, Norman | Freeson, Rt Hon Reginald | MacKenzie, Rt Hon Gregor |
| Buchanan, Richard | Garrett, John (Norwich S) | Maclennan, Robert |
| Callaghan, Jim (Middleton & P) | Garrett, W. E. (Wallsend) | McMillan, Tom (Glasgow C) |
| Campbell, Ian | George, Bruce | Madden, Max |
| Canavan, Dennis | Golding, John | Mallalieu, J. P. W. |
| Cant, R. B. | Gould, Bryan | Marks, Kenneth |
| Carmichael, Neil | Graham, Ted | Marshall, Dr Edmund (Goole) |
| Carter-Jones. Lewis | Grant, George (Morpeth), | Marshall, Jim (Leicester S) |
| Cartwright, John | Grant, John (Islington C) | Maynard, Miss Joan |
| Castle, Rt Hon Barbara | Grocott, Bruce | Meacher, Michael |
| Clemitson, Ivor | Hamilton, James (Bothwell) | Mellish, Rt Hon Robert |
| Cocks, Rt Hon Michael (Bristol S) | Mikardo, Ian | |
| Cohen, Stanley | Hamilton, W. W. (Central Fife) | Millan, Rt Hon Bruce |
| Coleman, Donald | Hardy, Peter | Mitchell, Austin (Grimsby) |
| Colquhoun, Ms Maureen | Harrison, Rt Hon Walter | Molloy, William |
| Cook, Robin F. (Edin C) | Hattersley, Rt Hon Roy | Moonman, Eric |
| Corbett, Robin | Hayman, Mrs Helene | Morris, Alfred (Wythenshawe) |
| Cowans, Harry | Healey, Rt Hon Denis | Morris, Rt Hon Charles R. |
| Cox, Thomas (Tooting) | Heffer, Eric S. | Morton, George |
| Craigen, Jim(Maryhill) | Home Robertson, John | Mulley, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Cronin, John | Horam, John | Newens, Stanley |
| Crowther, Stan (Rotherham) | Howell, Rt Hon Denis (B'ham, Sm H) | Oakes, Gordon |
| Cryer, Bob | Hoyle, Doug (Nelson) | Orboch, Maurice |
| Cunningham, Dr J. (Whlteh) | Huckfield, Les | Orme, Rt Hon Stanley |
| Davidson, Arthur | Hughes, Rt Hon C. (Anglesey) | Ovenden, John |
| Davies, Bryan (Enfield N) | Hughes, Robert (Aberdeen N) | Owen, Rt Hon Dr David |
| Davies, Rt Hon Denzil | Hughes, Roy (Newport) | Park, George |
| Davis, Clinton (Hackney C) | Hunter, Adam | Pavitt Laurie |
| Deakins, Eric | Irving, Rt Hon S. (Dartford) | Perry, Ernest |
| Dean, Joseph (Leeds West) | Jackson, Miss Margaret (Lincoln) | Price, C. (Lewisham W) |
| Price, William (Rugby) | Smith, Rt Hon John (N Lanarkshire) | Walker, Terry (Kingswood) |
| Radice, Giles | Snape, Peter | Watkins, David |
| Rees, Rt Hon Merlyn (Leeds S) | Spriggs, Leslie | Watkinson, John |
| Richardson, Miss Jo | Stallard, A. W. | Weetch, Ken |
| Robertson, George (Hamilton) | Stewart, Rt Hon M. (Fulham) | White, Frank R. (Bury) |
| Robinson, Geoffrey | Stoddart, David | Whitehead, Phillip |
| Rodgers, George (Chorley) | Stott, Roger | Wigley, Dafydd |
| Rodgers, Rt Hon William (Stockton) | Strang, Gavin | Willey, Rt Hon Frederick |
| Rooker, J. W. | Summerskill, Hon Dr Shirley | Williams, Rt Hon Alan (Swansea W) |
| Ross, Rt Hon W. (Kilmarnock) | Swain, Thomas | Williams, Rt Hon Shirley (Hertford) |
| Rowlands, Ted | Taylor, Mrs Ann (Bolton W) | Wilson, William (Coventry SE) |
| Sedgemore, Brian | Thomas, Ron (Bristol NW) | Wise, Mrs Audrey |
| Selby, Harry | Thorne, Stan (Preston South) | Woodall, Alec |
| Shaw, Arnold (Ilford South) | Tierney, Sydney | Woof Robert |
| Sheldon, Rt Hon Robert | Tilley, John | Young, David (Bolton E) |
| Shore, Rt Hon Peter | Tinn, James | |
| Short, Mrs Renée (Wolv NE) | Torney, Tom | TELLERS FOR THE NOES: |
| Silkin, Rt Hon S. C. (Dulwich) | Urwin, T. W. | Mr. Michael Ward and |
| Silverman, Julius | Wainwright, Edwin (Dearne V) | Mr. John Sever |
| Skinner, Dennis | Walker, Harold (Doncaster) |
§ Question accordingly agreed to.
§ Bill ordered to be brought in by Mr. John Cope, Mr. Patrick Mayhew and Mr. Ian Gow.