HC Deb 12 December 1979 vol 975 cc1289-91
10. Mr. Major

asked the Secretary of State for the Environment what consultations he has had with local authority leaders regarding the publication of individual staffing figures, authority by authority.

Mr. King

The Department is discussing with the local authority associations how the central and local government joint manpower watch might be extended to publish centrally manpower figures for all individual local authorities. We have also invited them to discuss what manpower and other figures might be published locally.

Mr. Major

Does my right hon. Friend agree that it is essential that the figures are made publicly available, individual authority by individual authority, so that ratepayers may know which authorities are increasing their staff levels at a time of restraint?

Mr. King

It is extremely important that the House, local authorities, councillors and local electors should have this information. I was unable to reply more fully to an earlier question about the performance of different local authorities in making economies because at present the information is aggregated and it is not possible to form selective judgments. Local electors are unable to form an informed judgment.

Mr. Alexander W. Lyon

Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that he used to argue that public expenditure cuts were required to get the Government off the backs of the people? He then argued that they were necessary because of the economic situation. Is he now saying that there are no real cuts? Does he believe in keeping good public services?

Mr. King

I have tried to make it clear to the House—I am sorry that the hon. Gentleman did not hear me—that we must call for improved economies. The economies that have been made in certain areas have been used by a number of Labour Members as an excuse to make extravagant claims about the extent of the economies that are being asked for. Extremely worrying allegations have been made that have disturbed many people. The allegations were not true. I am not seeking to conceal the fact that economies are necessary. I merely wish them to be understood in their true perspective.

Mr. Stokes

Is my right hon. Friend aware that in local government quality is required and not quantity? Large local staffs do not necessarily bring the greatest benefits. We want fewer but better public services.

Mr. King

I entirely understand my hon. Friend's argument. That is why we think it important initially to call for a freeze on local government recruitment and to pursue that policy so that electors may know what is happening to the staffing levels of local authorities. My hon. Friend will have noticed, in an answer I gave which appeared in Hansard recently, that in the past 15 years employment in local authorities has increased from 1.5 million to 2.6 million. I accept that there are some good reasons for that increase. However, it poses a number of questions—for instance, whether the increase was justified in some areas.

Mr. Park

What relevance do the figures have if they are not related to the needs of certain areas? Surely that is the factor which determines the number of staff necessary in a certain area.

Mr. King

The greatest value of the figures will be to reveal movements within individual authorities. I accept that it is not possible to make meaningful comparisons between the employment levels of various authorities which may serve different levels of population. However, the figures will be helpful to individual electors in individual areas. They will be able to know what is happening to the movement of recruitment and employment within their authority.